Floatation foam OR Storage

92excel

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Oct 6, 2008
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Quick question about flotation foam. I know that it is required in all boats under 20 foot. My boat is 19 so its required. and i know how much is some math equation that related to how much your boat and cargo weigh. What i am asking is does floatation floam effect how the boat sits in the water or is it just incase the boat was to take on water or capsize.

here is why i am asking.. on my little boat there is very little inder seat storage and i would really like to gain more.. I know its my boat and i can do whatever i want but i dont want to be even more of a low rider! :)

Check out the pictures. the areas in yellow are filled with foam and would be great for storage.

Thoughts?
a1.jpg

a2.jpg

a3.jpg
 

Bondo

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Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

I know that it is required in all boats under 20 foot. My boat is 19 so its required.

Ayuh,.... No it Ain't,.... That rule only applies to OEMs...
What i am asking is does floatation floam effect how the boat sits in the water

It's Weight,....
It sinks the boat the amount of it's Weight, just like you,+ the cargo....Anything you put in a boat makes it float lower,... Period...
Of course, the difference is,.. The Foam will gain More weight than you do over the years, as it absorbs more,+ more Water....
Just like the Crap you took out....
 

92excel

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Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

thanks for the reply!
so i assume thats one vote for go for it?
 

jcsercsa

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May 21, 2007
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Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

Hay 92excel, welcome !!

Well on the foam we have had many debates , so we went to the coast gaurd and for us back yard builders , foam is not required !! that being said , the foam is for safety and it can add structure to your ride also !!

for what i see you just want to add storage to her and not get rid of it all !! I say go for it !! John
 

Old Salt Oz

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Sep 22, 2006
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Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

thanks for the reply!
so i assume that's one vote for go for it?

It looks like you don't have enough to support the boat as is.

Have you calculated the amount of foam you would need?

Also keep in mind some designers added foam to add stiffness / strength to the hull, is yours one of that type?

Avagoodweekend......
 

92excel

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477
Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

It looks like you don't have enough to support the boat as is.

Have you calculated the amount of foam you would need?

Also keep in mind some designers added foam to add stiffness / strength to the hull, is yours one of that type?

Avagoodweekend......

yeah there was foam under the floor aswell as the areas i showed. so there may be enough.. but no i havnt done that calculation yet.

how am i to know if the foam is providing hull rigidity? If this foam is removed from the areas shown and replaced with cross members.. meaning not one big open storage area but rather a divided storage are would that mimic the needed rigidity?
 

Bondo

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Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

how am i to know if the foam is providing hull rigidity?

Ayuh,...

In your pictures, it looks like that hull is Well put together, with lots of stringers,+ bulkheads....

I'd say your Foam is there, Just to Rot out all that wood...
 

salty87

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Aug 12, 2003
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2,327
Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

i doubt you're losing much flotation from those couple of areas, as a percentage of the whole boat.
 

Nova II 260

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Jul 27, 2006
Messages
681
Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

The only good foam (in boating) is on a beer head and dock floats! (which is not the same foam btw)
Go with the storage, forget the foam. Storage space has never aided in stinger rot. You don't need no stinking, moldy, flotation foam like Bondo said. It's a USCG OEM requirement. OEM's like it because it gives the boat built-in obsolescence. In a scuttling, your boat is ruined with or without foam. Insurance pays the same. PFD flotation is the only flotation you may ever need.
Foam does not help your boat "float" in it's normal use. It only gives you a little something to hang on to should you swamp her. Foam does help to add weight and rot to your rig once it becomes saturated. Foam will deaden some wave to hull noise.
If the boat was properly designed to start with, with stringers and bulkheads there is no need for foam to keep it's shape. From the pics, your has that.
Your boat floats because of it's displacement of water not because of the amount of foam you have.
Do I need to say "I hate foam" ?
peace.gif
 

Bondo

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Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

PFD flotation is the only flotation you may ever need.
Foam does not help your boat "float" in it's normal use. It only gives you a little something to hang on to should you swamp her.

Ayuh,... I think Nova,+ I are on the Same Page.....;)

Btw,...
Many people seem to Think that if they go back together Without the foam, That someday if the boat Swamps,...
It'll sink like a Rock....
Well,...
That just Don't happen.....
Even without the Foam,... Your hull,+ everything in it, have natural Buoyancy...
The wood used in construction, the fuel tanks(yes, even when Full), ice coolers, tackleboxes, even the hull itself,...
All displace water,+ have a natural buoyancy...
'ell,.... Soaked Foam will probably Sink the boat Quicker....

The PFDs that should be available to Everybody onboard, will Save your Life...
Not the Foam that's going to Rot your boat out from under you....
 

Ike-110722

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Sep 3, 2007
Messages
408
Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

In my 25 years in the Office of Boating Safety I heard all of this and more. I don't know who in the USCG LCDR asked but they were wrong. If you build a boat for yourself AND Never sell it, then yeah you can do what you want to do. Yes these are manufacturer requirements, not owner requirements. BUT, again if you ever have an accident, or want to sell the boat, the missing foam is going to be a big liability problem.

Here's how it works. In your boat you have foam to support three things, some for the boat itself, some for the engine, battery and fuel tank, and some to support the people. The amount of each is based on a lot of things. For the boat it is based on the weight of the hull and deck and all the fittings attached, how much is glass, how much is wood, and so on.

For the engine it is based solely on the weight of the engine, the battery and full fuel tank weight.

The amount for people is based obviously on the number of people (actually on the persons weight) .

Each of those is distributed around the boat to achieve flotation in two ways depending on whether it's an outboard or inboard. Outboard powered boats are supposed to float level when swamped, and inboards only have to float with some part of the boat out of the water.

If you want to actually see what the rules are go here http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/flot.html or http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatbuilder/flotation_landing.htm


The intent is to provide a rescue platform. 1. It's a damn sight easier to sea a swamped boat, than it is a head sticking out of the water, 2. If the boat has level flotation you can actually sit in the boat with some of you body (the upper torso) out of the water helping to prevent hypothermia. On some boats, like the Boston Whaler, the power head of the O/B is out of the water and the engine can still be started. 3 On level floation boats it prevents the boat from capsizing ( a major cause of fatalities) and on a basic floation boat gives you something to hang onto. (ALWAYS ALWAYS STAY WITH THE BOAT).

Foam does not add that much weight to your boat. Foam weighs 2 lbs per cubic foot, so every cubic foot will float 60.4 pounds. However, people, boats, engines weigh less when submerged so it only takes a little to float a person, Actually less than a cubic foot. So by taking a little out you are changing the the boats ability to float when swamped a lot. Especially if you take it out in the stern of an outboard where the foam is there to float the engine in an upright position. Even on a 19 foot boat with an inboard that may have 20 or more cubic feet of foam it only weighs 40 pounds, far less than all the gear, beer and other crap you bring on board.

Yes PFD's will save your life, but read the previous thread on how many wear them. of the 600-700 live lost each year full 90% could have been saved if they wore their PFD. But they don't, so what's left. The flotation in the boat.

Yes there is a problem with some foams absorbing water (As I write this I am working on a research project to find out why and how to prevent it, for the USCG. The foam isn't supposed to soak up water) But if your boat is a 92, thenit was actually built before this problem with foam soaking started (it has to do with the EPA changing the rules on blowing agents in 1995) but it's damn easy to tell if the foam is soaked or not. If it isn't don't take it out. If it is take it out and replace it. There have to be other places on your boat where you can store things. Or just don't take so much stuff with you. it will lighten the load, improve your fuel economy and make your boat perform better. for instance, instead of two coolers of beer take only one, or none. That stuff weighs a lot, especially the ice (62.4 pounds per cubic foot, or 8 pounds per gallon)
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
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Oct 18, 2007
Messages
12,932
Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

peter.....welcome to i boats......

if you need help with your foam project....the guys on here would love to help....

we all love the idea of foam for floatation.....but the truth is....the reason we are all ripping the boats apart and taking out the rot is because of the foam.......

so it is a real sore area for us

we have tryed everything from pool noodles to 2 lieter plastic jugs to ping pong balls.

after all the hard work of totally re fitting our boats......200 hours worth.....we just arent prepaired to put the very thing back in that caused the problem in the first place !
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
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Oct 18, 2007
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Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

btw.....most pre 92 boats (we see here) have wet foam. 99%

foam is foam
 

Bondo

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Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

Yes PFD's will save your life, but read the previous thread on how many wear them. of the 600-700 live lost each year full 90% could have been saved if they wore their PFD. But they don't, so what's left. The flotation in the boat.

Ayuh,... I'll 2nd the Welcome Aboard,.....

Your arguement stands on the same reason that there's a Foam requirement at all....
Fear.... The Fear of what could maybe possibly Happen,.. Someday...

I could shoot holes thru your statements, All day long,..
But,...
I think that paragraph quoted pretty much sums up the Failure of the Foam.....
Only because, if it had Worked,... Those 600/ 700 People wouldn't be a #,... They'd be Alive today...
 

Nova II 260

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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Jul 27, 2006
Messages
681
Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

Used boats are normally sold "as is" and "buyer beware", as most of us know. I don't believe any liability would stick to the seller unless false claims were made.
My last 2 boats (32' Trojan, 26' Wellcraft) had no foam, TG. neither rotted out the stringers. I'm downsized to an aluminum boat now without wooden stringers.
IF the foam were to be Styrofoam, I would concede to the argument. Since there would be no negligible water absorption. However, Styrofoam is not friendly with gasoline, so the USCG won't allow it for flotation. As Bondo indicated, water saturated urethane foam by it's weight, in volume, will help you sink. Sealed air chambers would be the way to go if it were doable and you had the space available. Although the Titanic ....

Build your storage, don't sink, problem solved.
icon7.gif
 

Ike-110722

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Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

Thanks for the welcome. I've been lurking for a long time but this post caught my attention. There are just too many myths floating around.

Nova, I don't know where you get you info but it isn't correct. If you built the boat, you are liable for making sure it complies when you sell it. The law is specific it says "no person may sell, offer for sale........unless it complies". Now if you want to keep the thing and destroy it or burn when you're done with it that's your business. If it is second or third hand then you're right.

The Coast Guard does not outlaw styrofoam. The regulation says any foam that is expose to gasoline, oils, bilge cleaners (in other words stuff that will normally dissolve styrofoam) must not be affected by those things. There are some tests that foam that is going to be put where it would be exposed to those must be able to pass. However. any foam that is not going to be exposed to those can be used including styrofoam, which is used in a lot of boats sold in the USA and Canada. In fact I recently built a small dinghy and I installed styrofoam. Since I spent 25 years enforcing this law, would I deliberately violate it? I don't thinks so, especially not when the USCG inspector came to look at it. LOL

In fact Foam is not a requirement. The flotation standard is a performance standard. The boat must, when swamped, float in a specific attitude. Any means that achieves that is legal. I have seen everything from foam to beer cans, including things such as air chambers, bladders, milk bottles, ping pong balls. If the boat passes the test so be it. Boat manufacturers use foam because it is convenient. Here's a link that'll either make you laugh or scare you half to death http://newboatbuilders.com/images/BOTTLE.GIF Yes that is a boat we tested. No it didn't pass. Yes those are milk bottles. They had metal caps which corroded and let water into the bottles. If the builder had used plastic caps and glued them to the bottles it would have worked!

But the foam with the problem is the type most commonly used. Polyurethane two part blown foam, commonly called pour foam. I have been telling boat builders for years don't use it. Use block foam, also called stick foam, or pre manufactured foam. Yes it is more difficult to design into the boat, but it doesn't absorb water, period. Why? because the foam makers make it under very strict computer controlled conditions. The two part is not. It is blown into the boat with a foam gun, and the plant may be too hot, or too cold, or the gun may not be calibrated or dirty, and a variety of other things that cause problems.

Another solution is to encase the foam in plastic or FRP.

Air chambers are ok. On boats over 2 hp or inboards the boat has to meet the flotation standard with the two largest air chambers punctured. Aluminum Chambered Boats (aka ACB) has nothing but air chambers, six or eight depending on the size.

Boats that are manually propelled or less than 2hp can use air chambers with out the puncturing.

I appreciate your concern about wood stringers. They tend to rot any way because water gets trapped between the wood and the FRP covering the wood and has no way out, so the wood always stays wet. Some manufacturers use pressure treated wood to prevent this, others use no wood at all. A lot of boats out there with wood core transoms that are rotted out. Yuck.

And boats 20 feet or longer are not required to have floation and rarely do. However there are some builders who put flotation in boats up to about 26 feet. But on boats larger than that the need for flotation is not that great. However some places, such as France require it on all recreational boats.

I could go into all the reasons for requiring flotation but the simple one is before flotation over 1300 people died in rec boats every year. That number is now down to 600-700. Flotation isn't the only reason, there are also fuel system, electrical system standards, pfd's, boater eduction, and enforcement, and other standards, but since the major cause was capsizings and sinkings up until the 80's then flotation had something to do with cutting it down.

Anyway, I'll get off my soap box. Take a look at my web site and blogs. I have a Boating Safety Blog and one for boat builders. Http://newboatbuilders.com
 

lowkee

Lieutenant Commander
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Dec 13, 2008
Messages
1,890
Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

1300 people died in rec boats every year

I have to say, even at the 1300 level, we're talking disrupting the entire boatbuilding/repair trade in order to save a pittence of people. I'd guess more people die slipping in the shower every year. Should we mandate shower floor airbags in every stall?

Even if the 1300 person figure were for a single US state I would consider it negligably low, especially for a state such as Maine or Florida, surrounded by water. I have to agree with bond-o on this topic. The only reason people go along with government mandates is because someone sounds a scary alarm and throws out some big looking figure all while repeating the word 'death' or 'tragedy' or 'innocent' followed by 'children'. The fact is, 1300 people per year die sitting in front of their television or eating fast food and no laws have been passed to ban them.

Anyone wishing to keep their foam is welcome; I'll keep my wood from rotting. After all, 1300 people per year die from falling through rotten flooring, breaking their legs, dying, leaving an innocent child at home to starve amongst the terrorists wielding nuclear terror everywhere. A vote for foam is your patriotic duty!

I try to keep posts such as this to myself, but then again, regulation pushing never ends without a counter-voice.
 

Old Salt Oz

Seaman
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
51
Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

No doubt before the passing of such a law the authority will first seek the advice of the people it will effect.

No doubt many will vote for it, but many more would vote against, I suspect this is just another example laws passed to preserve the number of idiots among us.

Avagoodweekend......
 

5150abf

Vice Admiral
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
5,808
Re: Floatation foam OR Storage

All the foam in my boat was water logged so I pulled it all and didn't replace any of it.

I installed 2 bilge pumps, a 500 and an 1100gph, the 1100 has an alarm wired into the cicuit so if it activates I get a peircing alarm to let me know there is a problem.

My boat is trailered and I fish rivers so I am rarely ever more than 100 yards from shore so if your boat is used in different circumstances you may want to leave the foam say if it is left in the water or you go miles out in the ocean.
 
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