Electric Boats

racerone

Supreme Mariner
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Dec 28, 2013
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It is easy to be negative.-----What if there is no charging available at your dock , island or marina.----They never mention the cost of a new battery.------I say this is another concept geared to affluent folks who do not worry about ---" how much does it cost "
 

Lowlysubaruguy

Chief Petty Officer
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Dec 3, 2012
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514
Eventually the 24 plus foot class of boat will not be that uncommon. They may not be for the person who is looking for a great priced boat but imagine a 26 foot deep v boat that averaged 2 maybe 3 mpg at 30 to 35 MPH being able to pull one or two skiers make a day run of say 180 miles at 50 MPH for $70 in electricity v $450 to $500 people who regularly make 50 mile runs in a boat of this size will do the math and decide a $350,000 boat that saved them $150,000 in fuel v electric and realize that boat was going to cost them $150K any way and most of the people running a boat in this manner are working off a different set of numbers than your average boater any way.

I will tell you that if there able to achieve a safe 180 mile range in that class of boat and recharge in 10 hours there will be a much larger demand for this boat in a few applications I can think of. When I’m chasing tuna 75 Miles from shore and I want to leave before the fuel dock opens and return after there closed i have to risk running low on fuel the second day making a shorter run and being back before the pumps close or after they open. And often it can tak an hour to get fueled up because of the lines at the dock. And when the tuna are here its not a will skip a day kind of thing. Missing a day when its hot because you couldnt get fuel till 9 AM will take the wind out of your sails.

Now I’m not saying this is going to happen soon but I’d for sure be in line for a test run if said boat ever hit the water.
 

fatlenny

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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my Step-Father recently sent me this and found it interesting and the information probably very accurate.

looks like i have to break this up into a few comments. Hope this isn't considering spamming.

If you have feelings about going GREEN, read this. It sheds new light on the cost of batteries on your pocket as well as the environment. Interesting take on the "embedded cost" of EV batteries and all batteries for that matter.
I for one don't believe electric cars and trucks are the way to go.
MH





I am not a chemist, nor do I know if all the stated information is true, BUT some of the narrative does make one think about the worlds push for the electric vehicles, solar panels and wind turbines. I find it to be a clever way of presenting information that needs to be heard.

MH


The Shocking Naked Truth
Bruce Haedrich


When I saw the title of this lecture, especially with the picture of the scantily clad model, I couldn’t resist attending. The packed auditorium was abuzz with questions about the address; nobody seemed to know what to expect. The only hint was a large aluminum block sitting on a sturdy table on the stage.

When the crowd settled down, a scholarly-looking man walked out and put his hand on the shiny block, “Good evening,” he said, “I am here to introduce NMC532-X,” and he patted the block, “we call him NM for short,” and the man smiled proudly. “NM is a typical electric vehicle (EV) car battery in every way except one; we programmed him to send signals of the internal movements of his electrons when charging, discharging, and in several other conditions. We wanted to know what it feels like to be a battery. We don’t know how it happened, but NM began to talk after we downloaded the program.

Despite this ability, we put him in a car for a year and then asked him if he’d like to do presentations about batteries. He readily agreed on the condition he could say whatever he wanted. We thought that was fine, and so, without further ado, I’ll turn the floor over to NM,” the man turned and walked off the stage.

“Good evening,” NM said. He had a slightly affected accent, and when he spoke, he lit up in different colors. “That cheeky woman on the marquee was my idea,” he said. “Were she not there, along with ‘naked’ in the title, I’d likely be speaking to an empty auditorium! I also had them add ‘shocking’ because it’s a favorite word amongst us batteries.” He flashed a light blue color as he laughed.

“Sorry,” NM giggled then continued, “three days ago, at the start of my last lecture, three people walked out. I suppose they were disappointed there would be no dancing girls. But here is what I noticed about them. One was wearing a battery-powered hearing aid, one tapped on his battery-powered cell phone as he left, and a third got into his car, which would not start without a battery. So I’d like you to think about your day for a moment; how many batteries do you rely on?”

He paused for a full minute which gave us time to count our batteries. Then he went on, “Now, it is not elementary to ask, ‘what is a battery?’ I think Tesla said it best when they called us Energy Storage Systems. That’s important. We do not make electricity – we store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid. Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, n’est-ce pas?”

He flashed blue again. “Einstein’s formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five thousand pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.”

He lit up red when he said that, and I sensed he was smiling. Then he continued in blue and orange. “Mr. Elkay introduced me as NMC532. If I were the battery from your computer mouse, Elkay would introduce me as double-A, if from your cell phone as CR2032, and so on. We batteries all have the same name depending on our design. By the way, the ‘X’ in my name stands for ‘experimental.’

There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.

Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium.

The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.

All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery’s metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.

In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle batteries like me or care to dispose of single-use ones properly.

But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs.”

NM got redder as he spoke. “Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.

In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans.

The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.

Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it’s back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.
 

fatlenny

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Messages
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But wait - can you guess one of the highest but rarely acknowledged embedded costs?” NM said, then gave us about thirty seconds to make our guesses. Then he flashed his lights and said, “It’s the depreciation on the 5000 pound car you used to transport one pound of canned beans!”

NM took on a golden glow, and I thought he might have winked. He said, “But that can of beans is nothing compared to me! I am hundreds of times more complicated. My embedded costs not only come in the form of energy use; they come as environmental destruction, pollution, disease, child labor, and the inability to be recycled.”

He paused, “I weigh one thousand pounds, and as you see, I am about the size of a travel trunk.” NM’s lights showed he was serious. “I contain twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside me are 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells.

It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each auto battery like me, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth’s crust for just - one - battery.

He let that one sink in, then added, “I mentioned disease and child labor a moment ago. Here’s why. Sixty-eight percent of the world’s cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?”

NM’s red and orange light made it look like he was on fire. “Finally,” he said, “I’d like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being ‘green,’ but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.

The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.

Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.

NM lights dimmed, and he quietly said, “There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. I’m trying to do my part with these lectures.

Thank you for your attention, good night, and good luck.” NM’s lights went out, and he was quiet, like a regular battery.
 

nola mike

Vice Admiral
Joined
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There are definitely downsides to all energy producing technologies. The ultimate solution, which of course most of the "free marketeers" (who for some reason seem to be the ones against renewable energy) balk at, is to pass the embedded costs along to the energy producers. If coal-burners were responsible for the environmental impact that they created (climate change, coal ash production, smog and resultant increased population medical costs, etc), or the renewable crowd was similarly responsible for what they created (battery is done--you figure out what to do with it), I promise you that industry would come up with solutions quickly. But you'd need government to get the ball rolling.
 

fatlenny

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There are definitely downsides to all energy producing technologies. The ultimate solution, which of course most of the "free marketeers" (who for some reason seem to be the ones against renewable energy) balk at, is to pass the embedded costs along to the energy producers. If coal-burners were responsible for the environmental impact that they created (climate change, coal ash production, smog and resultant increased population medical costs, etc), or the renewable crowd was similarly responsible for what they created (battery is done--you figure out what to do with it), I promise you that industry would come up with solutions quickly. But you'd need government to get the ball rolling.
What I got from that was the point that just because it is electric, doesn't mean that energizing the battery is clean. Lets just ignore for a moment the environmental impact that improperly disposing of batteries causes, obtaining the minerals to create them or the pollution created in all these processes. The majority of electrical energy created in 2020 for our use is from burning natural gas at 40%, Coal comes in second at 19%. I love the concept of electric vehicles but one of the things this is to bring to light is the fact that if everyone goes to electric, well the power plants cant run electric motors to create electricity. they will be forced to burn more fuels and create more power plants to keep up with our demand of everyone charging their vehicles. We must find a better source for energy, proper way to dispose or recycle old unusable sources or cells before we greatly expand the use of electric vehicles. Or we will just keep the old problem with the burning of fuels(electric plants will be forced to burn much more) and creating new ones by creating new larger batteries not disposed of properly. I myself fell for electric is clean when (right now) it really is not.
 

racerone

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Many folks are unaware of electrical power or what the grid is all about.-----I have asked numerous folks the same question about a local generating station.-----" how much power " is needed to turn one of the 8 generators.-----The most common ( 9 of 10 ) answer is 10,000 HP.-----The actual # is 1,000,000 HP.------If governments dictate that no more new fossil fuel vehicles can be sold in 2035 , somebody had better thing about some more generating capacity.-----Takes 10 years + to build a large generating facility.
 

nola mike

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What I got from that was the point that just because it is electric, doesn't mean that energizing the battery is clean. Lets just ignore for a moment the environmental impact that improperly disposing of batteries causes, obtaining the minerals to create them or the pollution created in all these processes. The majority of electrical energy created in 2020 for our use is from burning natural gas at 40%, Coal comes in second at 19%. I love the concept of electric vehicles but one of the things this is to bring to light is the fact that if everyone goes to electric, well the power plants cant run electric motors to create electricity. they will be forced to burn more fuels and create more power plants to keep up with our demand of everyone charging their vehicles. We must find a better source for energy, proper way to dispose or recycle old unusable sources or cells before we greatly expand the use of electric vehicles. Or we will just keep the old problem with the burning of fuels(electric plants will be forced to burn much more) and creating new ones by creating new larger batteries not disposed of properly. I myself fell for electric is clean when (right now) it really is not.
You're missing that an electric motor is inherently more efficient than an ICE. also transmission is electricity is easier than using more fossil fuels to transport gas
 

racerone

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The electric motor may be efficient , yes.----But the steam turbines that drive the many large generators are about 33% efficient.
 

nola mike

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The electric motor may be efficient , yes.----But the steam turbines that drive the many large generators are about 33% efficient.
Yes, we need to get away from coal. Assume that's the point you're trying to make
 

racerone

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Nola-----You said that the electric motor is very efficient.-----I say that the source of the electricity to charge the battery may not be efficient.----Many dams are used to generate electricity.----These dams block fish in their migration to spawning grounds.-----In a 100 years from now do your grand kids want cheap electricity or abundant fish to eat ???----Food for thought !
 

nola mike

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Nola-----You said that the electric motor is very efficient.-----I say that the source of the electricity to charge the battery may not be efficient.----Many dams are used to generate electricity.----These dams block fish in their migration to spawning grounds.-----In a 100 years from now do your grand kids want cheap electricity or abundant fish to eat ???----Food for thought !
They don't want all the fallout from global warming for sure.
 

Grub54891

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Jun 17, 2012
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California's electrical grid is shot. Texas isn't far behind. Look at what happend to Texas when they had one cold snap. The entire grid went down. Fix the grid, spend millions for that, figure out how to make power before selling things that require more power. How about going back to horse and buggy? yup slower but maby thats what we need.
 
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racerone

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So if I have the numbers right if an EV ( boat or car ) is plugged in and charging at 72 kilowatts then 100 HP must go in / come from a generator somewhere to do that.---During that Texas cold snap they say it was costing up to $900 to put a full charge into a high end EV.-----Quite high I would say.
 

fatlenny

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I apologize. My intent was only to share something I recently was shown that I felt it applied here. Maybe it shouldn't have been shared on this post or topic. I didn't mean to start a debate on this thread.
 

Jim Hawkins

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Mar 11, 2013
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Well, I see you guys have been talking amongst yourselves while I tended to other matters and I think that's great. Now I'm back. Sold my houseboat, sold my RIB tender and sold the Sundance Skiff project and now with room in the yard I'm back to the electric boat project. I did get the motor out onto the bay on the back of a small skiff to test it. At 12 volts the 24 volt motor ran about like a trolling motor. Then I upped it to 18 volts and it took off... but just for a short bit when the rubber hose I was using as a temp coupling snapped (big surprise). Never got to see what 24 volts would do. It was enough to give me direction so I would get a good coupling.
Now in my research I had seen where others had used a coupling called a Jaw Coupling Hub. (I've also heard it called a Lovejoy connection after a company that sells them). Being overly critical I dismissed them as fancy and unnecessary until I took another look and read about how they were exactly the kind of connection I needed. They are used to connect a drive train where you want to dampen vibration and allow for slight misalignment.
1639690785368.png

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1639690946652.png

That, friends and neighbors, is when I had a revelation. This whole outboard conversion is about 1 thing. The bracket that connects the electric motor to the old outboard housing. The electric motor can easily be ordered online as can the jaw coupling. Everything is simply plug and play except for the bracket I need to engineer.
So, that's where I am, foraging for small junk outboards and working out the design of the bracket. I bought a boat with fiberglass pontoons for my electric boat. I want to build an aluminum frame to mount an 8' by 12' roof made of solar panels (see note*), keep the 50HP gas motor on the back and add 2 electric motors at the back on the pontoons. Aint she purty!
1639691990561.png

* On the subject some of you were discussing about the efficiency of recharging off the grid I want to repeat the electric part of this boat will be solar powered from used panels I already own.
 

H20Rat

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my Step-Father recently sent me this and found it interesting and the information probably very accurate.

looks like i have to break this up into a few comments. Hope this isn't considering spamming.


To many things to pick apart in there, but here is one thing that is fundamentally wrong...

He flashed blue again. “Einstein’s formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five thousand pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.”


The big difference that everyone overlooks is how efficient is the engine that produces the power? A modern internal combustion engine is at best 20% efficient. A coal plant will be in the neighborhood of 40 to 50%. A natural gas plant is 80+%.

In terms of raw energy efficiency, it is far better to process fuel at 80% efficiency (or even 40%) and send it down the lines as electricity than it is to burn it in an IC engine. (Also keep in mind it takes a ton of energy to produce gasoline which isn't factored in, whereas a power plant can run on raw materials in some cases)
 

Jim Hawkins

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499
In terms of raw energy efficiency, it is far better to process fuel at 80% efficiency (or even 40%) and send it down the lines as electricity than it is to burn it in an IC engine.

Very true WaterRat, as much as people complain about high electric bills, electricity is if fact produced far more efficiently than other sources of energy (except maybe nuclear)
 

racerone

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Steam turbines power a lot of generators.-----Put up to 1,000,000 horsepower into the generator.-----They ( turbines ) are less than 40% efficient.
 
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