Closed Cooling System on Port Engine Running Hot(ter)

tpenfield

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Wondering if I should get a couple of IAC's to see if that straightens things out. It would be about $200, but I already have about $800 into this fix. :facepalm:

Also, I have 2 new distributor caps and rotors on the way, but they did not arrive in time for the weekend. Just wondering if the distributor cap and rotor are worn if an erratic spark would effect the idle speed instantaneously and then cause the MEFI to try to correct. I assume there ECU values are all being generated many times per second.

Anyway, just trying to plan the next set of diagnostics . .

1) Fuel rail pressure check - The parts diagram that I could find online calls the fitting that I found on the fuel rail a 'valve' (22-805408), but it has a plug (22-805515) in it, so I assume it is a female type schrader valve. The fuel system pressure gauge that I have is also a female schrader. So, I would need some sort of male-to-male schrader :noidea: Any help there ?

2) New Distributor Cap & rotor - what the heck it has been probably 7-8 years since new, I would guess.

3) New IAC's - not sure this will fix anything, but it is worth a try.
 

alldodge

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1) Took a look at my fuel rail a few minutes ago, mine has been changed when the repower was done. I'm going to guess the plug is 1/8 NPT, but just guessing. They do make male- NPT to shrader. Also had a look at my old VST and you should also be able to use the same fitting for the EFI's. Maybe this type 91-806901
TBI adapter 91-806901.jpg


2) Won't hurt but don't think it's the issue

3) I wouldn't
 
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HT32BSX115

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Ted, I am kinda surprised that a healthy cooling system wouldn't be able to handle lean running (and maintain temp etc)

I didn't see if you checked, but did you visually verify that your oil cooler is not partially blocked?

When I installed my 7.4L Bravo, I found the oil cooler clogged with debris from a previous impeller failure. BUT, I still had to use needle-nose pliers to pull out all the pieces. Backflushing would not dislodge them.

Funing thing though, when I asked the previous owner, he said he changed the impeller (and it looked more or less "ok ) and said he didn't have any overheating problems.........
 

tpenfield

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Ted, I am kinda surprised that a healthy cooling system wouldn't be able to handle lean running (and maintain temp etc)

I didn't see if you checked, but did you visually verify that your oil cooler is not partially blocked?

When I installed my 7.4L Bravo, I found the oil cooler clogged with debris from a previous impeller failure. BUT, I still had to use needle-nose pliers to pull out all the pieces. Backflushing would not dislodge them.

Funing thing though, when I asked the previous owner, he said he changed the impeller (and it looked more or less "ok ) and said he didn't have any overheating problems.........

I did go through both oil & P/S coolers with a probe as well as back flushed them, etc. Besides, I have not had an impeller failure on this engine and it was running fine for the first 2 years. The cooling system of the engine that is running hotter (port engine) is actually taking more heat out of the coolant and my ratios or 'temp in vs. temp out' are the same for each engine. So, I think the cooling system is doing all that it can. It is just that the port engine is generating a lot more heat than the starboard engine.

I'm going to focus on the fuel system pressure, because that is one key piece of the puzzle that I have yet to determine. I can switch the IAC's as Chris had suggested . . . but the throttle body is a bit of a pain to remove.
 

tpenfield

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I noticed the GM parts were a lot less expensive, and the same part (right?). I just was not sure by the looks of it alone if it was the correct IAC. There seem to be a few that look the same . I forgot to write down the GM part number of the one that I cleaned :facepalm:

Is there a cross reference list somewhere :noidea:
 

tpenfield

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I was just looking at some of the tests that I can run with the diacom software. I can even put it in base timing mode. :thumb:
 

tpenfield

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If you buy genuine, yes. https://www.summitracing.com/int/par.../model/montana and pay $29 each.

BTW, in your Diacom software you have an IAC test page. Just run the test and you'll know if they are working properly. :D

Chris......

I ordered the IAC's ( 2 of them) figuring that I can change them both out for that money ($30 each). I'll also run the test. I have been reading that IAC 'counts' can go up to 255, but generally should be in the 80-150 range. the highest I saw on my testing so far was 28 . . . :noidea:

Today, I'll scout out some fittings for the fuel rail pressure test. The Mercruiser fitting was about $32 . . . not paying no $32 for no $2 fitting :eek:
 

tpenfield

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The new distributor caps and rotors arrived and I should have the new IAC's tomorrow. So, I should be all set to do the pressure test and swap out some parts this weekend. The nice thing will be that I can see if there is any difference in the engine operation by using the Diacom software.
 

tpenfield

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Thankful that tomorrow is Friday, 'cuz I get to go work on the boat some more :) :rolleyes: :facepalm: the Admiral decided that boat mechanic stuff is just too boring and will be heading out shopping for the day. She is probably trying to keep pace with my recent spending trend :D

So, I'll have all of Saturday to go through everything without feeling the pressure on needing to put things back together so we all can go boating :thumb:

I have been reading up on a variety of causes of overheating . . . mostly in automotive forums, since the evidence is pointing to the engine itself rather than the cooling system. I came across some information about ignition timing, if retarded, can/does cause the engine to run hotter. now I did check the timing, but it seemed to be jumping around a bit, because of the issue that Chris noted, about the MEFI apparently trying to regulate the idle speed via the timing. so, with a little bit of Diacom experience now under my belt, I think I can set the timing into base mode using the software and get a better check of the timing. the new rotor and cap should also help.

Just wondering though if anyone has direct experience/knowledge of retarded timing (i.e. not advanced enough) causing the engine to run hotter??? supposedly it exposes the cylinder head & exhaust ports to too much of the burning cycle and raises the heat of the engine. Not sure about the thermodynamics of it all, but that is the folk lore on the Internet :noidea:
 
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alldodge

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If its on the internet it must be true? Oh I like that, I'm going to go post something about alldodge being such a great person, then everyone will know its ture :rolleyes: :D :pound:
 

HT32BSX115

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Just wondering though if anyone has direct experience/knowledge of retarded timing (i.e. not advanced enough) causing the engine to run hotter??? supposedly it exposes the cylinder head & exhaust ports to too much of the burning cycle and raises the heat of the engine. Not sure about the thermodynamics of it all, but that is the folk lore on the Internet :noidea:
Timing will cause engines to run hotter..... But a marine cooling system (with excessive cooling capacity AND a thermostat) it seems that the additional heat would be "taken-care" of by that cooling system.

If it couldn't, at least 1 of 2 things would have to be true.

1. The cooling system is nearly at the limit of it's capability and additional heat pushes it "over the top"

2. The additional heat due to timing is REALLY excessive and even a properly operating cooling system cannot keep up.

(or both)

It's all about thermodynamic heat transfer.

I read through your spreadsheet on temps at different points but didn't see where(or if) you compared the flow rates for each. (If you did, I'll apologize in advance for not seeing it!!!)

Low flow (raw side) would definitely produce higher temps in the items that get the hottest (block, heads, exhaust manifolds [if part of the closed system])
 
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tpenfield

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Rick,

Points well taken. I have not been able to measure the flow rate of one engine versus the other, but have gone through the port system extensively.

If the engine work does not show results, then I should probably do something to measure the flow rate on both sides of the cooling system of each engine.

The main thing that is guiding me to look at the engine is the lean burn looking spark plugs as well as the Diacom status indicating a Lean condition.
 

HT32BSX115

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The main thing that is guiding me to look at the engine is the lean burn looking spark plugs as well as the Diacom status indicating a Lean condition.

If you're definitely running lean, does it seem to take a slightly higher throttle setting on the lean engine to get the same RPM?
 

achris

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That 'lean' appearance could also be a reflection of higher cylinder temperatures and pressures. Is it lean because it's hot, or is it hot because it's lean? :noidea:
 

tpenfield

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Interesting points guys. We shall see. I have not noticed more throttle being needed on one engine vs the other. Of course with twins, I think a stronger engine will help a weaker one, so it is hard to tell.

One key thing when comparing the engines is that the heat rise is only within the engine and not the exhaust. So, that seems to have pointed to the port engine making more heat, yet the port exhaust making about the same as the starbd engine exhaust. Anyway, this certainly has been a tricky situation to diagnose, and actually started last season when I first noticed the port engine starting to get hotter.

I have all the parts that I ordered (distributor caps, rotors, IAC's, fuel pressure test fittings) so hopefully I'll make some progress.
 
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tpenfield

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I've been doing some more research and thinking into the ignition timing effects of 'late' timing and how that might effect engine temperature, just because that sort of thing interests me, not that it will be meaningful with the current engine situation.

However, it looks like given a certain amount of energy delivered to the cylinder of an engine, in the form of fuel that is burned during the combustion cycle, the energy is released as a combination of mechanical work and heat. If the ignition of the fuel is too late in the cycle, the burning fuel will not have as much opportunity to perform 'work' upon the piston, since the piston would be further along in its downward movement. Less work done on the piston, means more heat left in the combustion gases, resulting in a hotter engine.

This is all theoretical of course :) I would think that the timing would have to be off by a considerable amount to really have a measureable effect though . . .

Game plan for Saturday is:

- Cooler of beer (gonna be sunny and hot)
- Change Rotors and Distributor Caps on both engines
- Set each engine into base timing mode and check timing.
- Test engine temperatures
- Check spark advance consistency at idle speeds using the Diacom software
- Test the IAC valves using the Diacom
- Change IAC's if needed
- Check Fuel Rail Pressure, if ignition timing and IAC do not resolve issue
- I was also thinking about checking the exhaust tubes to see the condition of the flappers.
- Check compression to see if any evidence of exhaust valve deterioration
- Use inspection camera to visually check the exhaust valves (I got a new camera with the smaller 7 mm head so I should be able to get a decent view of the valves)
 
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