SoulWinner
Commander
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2002
- Messages
- 2,423
Ok folks, there have been some posters here lately that have made some statements regarding their belief that Christianity and conservatism are fundamentally opposed on the subject of taxation/government redistribution of wealth(bscott, binlurkin et al). I am really surprised that Rolmops was one of these, as you are obviously more educated than any of the others who made these statements. (I am really curious Rolmops, why are so many Jews politically liberal??) Anyhoo, I figure as the resident preacher man here, I will do my best to set the story straight and do a little bible teaching in the process, for the edification of us all. Please get your bibles and turn with me to the scriptures that are listed becuase I didn't type all of them out in full, plus, that way you can read the surrounding scriptures to make sure I haven't taken His word out of context. So here goes:<br /><br />The complaint: Christians who are opposed to taxation for the purpose of or with the outcome of government redistribution of wealth are not true Christians. The evidence given for this was given by Rolmops, using the New Testament, (are you a messianic Jew Rolmops?? That would be really cool, I dont know many Messianic Jews, but Michael Rood is one, look him up on the net. He is one of the most brilliant historians and bible scholars I have ever heard.)specifically the Book of the Acts, 4:32-37, 5:1-11. It is indeed possible to read these scriptures and think that the message is a divine command to live "in" and "as" a commune among other Christians. Lets go back to the bible and see if we can illuminate this passage. If you have your bibles handy, lets all look at the following, Mat. 10:5-15. Here Jesus tells the twelve that they are to go forth with the Word, and bring nothing with them, no money, nor coats or even staves. He says in verse 10 that the worker is worthy of his food. In verse 14 Jesus states that when they meet people who refuse to receive the disciples or to hear the Word, they are to depart, shaking the dust of that place off of their feet. Verse 15 sums up Jesus feeling toward those who wont receive his disciples. This story is also told in Mark chapter 6 and Luke chapter 9. So what we see here is that Jesus tells his disciples that their job is to get this new church going by preaching the Gospel of Christ, that is their only job. But how does this square with other scripture regarding WORK and eating or survival? You see, there is a difference between you and I and the original disciples that traveled around preaching the Gospel. Their work was preaching and teaching, and they received food and shelter and basic necessities from doing that work, like preachers do today; they preach and the congregation pays them in the offering plate. But does that mean that we as contemporary Christians are to live on a commune with one antother, or live in a communist society? Is that what Jesus is telling us? No.<br /><br />Turn with me now to 2Thessalonians and lets look in the third chapter. Ok read the whole chapter, its short, but pay special attention to verses 8,9 and 10. Here the notion is spelled out both for preachers of the Gospel and for everyone who is alive, if you dont work, neither should you eat. Verses 11 and 12 say that those that dont work and are busybodies should be commanded and exhorted by Jesus to work and eat their OWN bread. This notion of each man performing his own work for his own survival and success starts in Genesis with Cain and Abel both working, Cain working the soil, Abel working his flocks; and it is cemented in the Ten Commandments, six days thou shalt labour and do all thine work
.. See, as much as we are commanded to observe the Sabbath (Saturday, but I wont go into that now Rolmops 
), we are commanded to labour and do all our own work. <br /><br />But what about the elderly or the infirmed? What about the elderly widow mentioned in Mark 12: 42-43 and Luke 21:2-3. When she gave all of the money that she had in the world in the offering, did she expect the occupying Roman government to give her housing assistance or food stamps? She was old and had no husband to care for her (or her for him) and yet, were the Romans particularly evil for not providing a state funded assisted living facility for her? No. No culture that ever existed was capable of saving everyone from their own poor life choices. America is the only culture that ever come close to reaching such a misguided role; only because America was founded on principals of self reliance, where capitalism bred ambition, and individuals were rewarded for hard work and the drive to succeed. For individuals who seek the easy road in life, for those with whom failure is an option, then the outcome will inevitably result in a class of people who will follow this path to neediness; and in a society ( a Great Sociaty perhaps?) that is set upon the path of rewarding slothfulness with hand-outs, the culture of non-achievement is nurtured and not only damages society as whole, it goes against the most basic and fundamental commandments of God regarding the way we are to live our lives.<br /><br />But what does the bible say about freely giving as apposed to confiscatory taxation for the purpose of government redistribution of wealth? Well, take the widow of Mark 12 and Luke 21. She freely gave all she had. Why would she destitute herself like that, giving to God? Lets look at 1 Tim: 1-8. The lesson here is that we first turn to God, trusting Him as our provider (remember Genesis 22:1-14 where God test Abrahams faith, then provides a ram for the sacrifice, prompting Abraham to name the place Jehovah-jireh, meaning the Lord will provide.) and that one of the primary duties of His children is toward family members to take care of each other, NOT to be greedy and selfish to the point that we agree to allow a bloated and inefficient government entity rob from the producers of wealth to enslave those who have made poor choices in life with handouts and government subsistance programs. When these issues are taken care of within the family as a unit, the family has the authority granted by God to exhort those who are able bodied to work, and to graciously care for those who are elderly or infirmed. Look how generous people are when they are given the opportunity to give freely of their own accord. In Exodus 11:1-3 the Israelites asked the Egyptians for jewels of silver and jewels of gold and the Egyptians gave them so much that they were able to build the tabernacle and have much wealth left over.<br /><br />Is the idea of an offering made of ones own freewill meaningful to God? Is this how we should live according to God? Looking in the book of Romans 8:32 we see that God freely gives us all things; that is to say that all that we have is freely given by God. For those who would argue that they worked and therefore earned all that they have, let me remind you of Deuteronomy 8:17-18 And thou say in tine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth. But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is He that giveth thee power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day. So again we see that if we are healthy and able to work and prosper, we owe it to God to do so, and so we also owe it to God to care for our families and those we love, without the Government helping themselves to our wallet, no matter how benevolent they disquise thier thievery. Dont misunderstand me here, I understand that our government requires money to operate, to build roads, to provide for national defense. After all, Jesus said in Mark 12:17, Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesers, and to God the things that are Gods. I am saying that social programs do not belong in government hands, if they did, God would have said so. God knows that we humans dont like to have any heavy hand take from usthat which we worked for and earned, be it the government or a pistol waving thug. But God does understand that generosity is a virtue among his children as I will prove with scripture. You see, liberals love the idea of giving to the poor. The problem is that they are greedy and selfish and cant give to the poor of their own accord, so they accomplish their feel good agenda with the help of legalized thievery called taxation for the purpose of funding social programs. This is the way of the Godless and lost
.looking for something to add meaning and purpose to their empty lives
.seeking any respite from the filth of their own existence because they dont know the love and mercy of God. What about true children of God? Not the Robert Tiltons and Jim Bakers of the world, but people like me, like the members of your home church who faithfully tithe, or missionaries who give up all of the comforts of home to spread the good news of the Gospel of Jesus in third world countries. Here is what God says about us and our giving. In Leviticus 22 the bible emphasized that our offerings are to made freely, or of our own freewill. This is to say that we give happily. This is reinforced in the New Testament in 2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly or of necessity: for God love a cheerful giver. In Acts 20:35 Paul writes I have showed you all things, how that so laboring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how He said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. What happens when children God give? How do we give when we give freely? We put to shame any government program. Why, we give abundantly, because we know and have faith that our Father gives to us more than abundantly, He give to us Exceeding Abundance. Just look at Ezra 7:15-16. The priests were given over 4 tons of silver alone for the rebuilding of the Temple of God! Not to mention gold and other things! Look at 1Chronicles 29:6-9! When given the opportunity, not the CHOICE, but the OPPORTUNITY, we give abundantly!!!!<br /><br />So, God doesnt want us living on a commune, sharing equally. If He did, he wouldnt give us the power to get wealth (Deut. 8:17-18). Just read Deuteronomy chapter 28, where if we hearken diligently to the words of the Lord, and do all of His commandments
look at how he has promised to bless us!<br /><br />Alright, I guess that about sums up todays lesson. Read Duet chapter 28. Thats good stuff, and bless you all!
), we are commanded to labour and do all our own work. <br /><br />But what about the elderly or the infirmed? What about the elderly widow mentioned in Mark 12: 42-43 and Luke 21:2-3. When she gave all of the money that she had in the world in the offering, did she expect the occupying Roman government to give her housing assistance or food stamps? She was old and had no husband to care for her (or her for him) and yet, were the Romans particularly evil for not providing a state funded assisted living facility for her? No. No culture that ever existed was capable of saving everyone from their own poor life choices. America is the only culture that ever come close to reaching such a misguided role; only because America was founded on principals of self reliance, where capitalism bred ambition, and individuals were rewarded for hard work and the drive to succeed. For individuals who seek the easy road in life, for those with whom failure is an option, then the outcome will inevitably result in a class of people who will follow this path to neediness; and in a society ( a Great Sociaty perhaps?) that is set upon the path of rewarding slothfulness with hand-outs, the culture of non-achievement is nurtured and not only damages society as whole, it goes against the most basic and fundamental commandments of God regarding the way we are to live our lives.<br /><br />But what does the bible say about freely giving as apposed to confiscatory taxation for the purpose of government redistribution of wealth? Well, take the widow of Mark 12 and Luke 21. She freely gave all she had. Why would she destitute herself like that, giving to God? Lets look at 1 Tim: 1-8. The lesson here is that we first turn to God, trusting Him as our provider (remember Genesis 22:1-14 where God test Abrahams faith, then provides a ram for the sacrifice, prompting Abraham to name the place Jehovah-jireh, meaning the Lord will provide.) and that one of the primary duties of His children is toward family members to take care of each other, NOT to be greedy and selfish to the point that we agree to allow a bloated and inefficient government entity rob from the producers of wealth to enslave those who have made poor choices in life with handouts and government subsistance programs. When these issues are taken care of within the family as a unit, the family has the authority granted by God to exhort those who are able bodied to work, and to graciously care for those who are elderly or infirmed. Look how generous people are when they are given the opportunity to give freely of their own accord. In Exodus 11:1-3 the Israelites asked the Egyptians for jewels of silver and jewels of gold and the Egyptians gave them so much that they were able to build the tabernacle and have much wealth left over.<br /><br />Is the idea of an offering made of ones own freewill meaningful to God? Is this how we should live according to God? Looking in the book of Romans 8:32 we see that God freely gives us all things; that is to say that all that we have is freely given by God. For those who would argue that they worked and therefore earned all that they have, let me remind you of Deuteronomy 8:17-18 And thou say in tine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth. But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is He that giveth thee power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day. So again we see that if we are healthy and able to work and prosper, we owe it to God to do so, and so we also owe it to God to care for our families and those we love, without the Government helping themselves to our wallet, no matter how benevolent they disquise thier thievery. Dont misunderstand me here, I understand that our government requires money to operate, to build roads, to provide for national defense. After all, Jesus said in Mark 12:17, Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesers, and to God the things that are Gods. I am saying that social programs do not belong in government hands, if they did, God would have said so. God knows that we humans dont like to have any heavy hand take from usthat which we worked for and earned, be it the government or a pistol waving thug. But God does understand that generosity is a virtue among his children as I will prove with scripture. You see, liberals love the idea of giving to the poor. The problem is that they are greedy and selfish and cant give to the poor of their own accord, so they accomplish their feel good agenda with the help of legalized thievery called taxation for the purpose of funding social programs. This is the way of the Godless and lost
.looking for something to add meaning and purpose to their empty lives
.seeking any respite from the filth of their own existence because they dont know the love and mercy of God. What about true children of God? Not the Robert Tiltons and Jim Bakers of the world, but people like me, like the members of your home church who faithfully tithe, or missionaries who give up all of the comforts of home to spread the good news of the Gospel of Jesus in third world countries. Here is what God says about us and our giving. In Leviticus 22 the bible emphasized that our offerings are to made freely, or of our own freewill. This is to say that we give happily. This is reinforced in the New Testament in 2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly or of necessity: for God love a cheerful giver. In Acts 20:35 Paul writes I have showed you all things, how that so laboring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how He said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. What happens when children God give? How do we give when we give freely? We put to shame any government program. Why, we give abundantly, because we know and have faith that our Father gives to us more than abundantly, He give to us Exceeding Abundance. Just look at Ezra 7:15-16. The priests were given over 4 tons of silver alone for the rebuilding of the Temple of God! Not to mention gold and other things! Look at 1Chronicles 29:6-9! When given the opportunity, not the CHOICE, but the OPPORTUNITY, we give abundantly!!!!<br /><br />So, God doesnt want us living on a commune, sharing equally. If He did, he wouldnt give us the power to get wealth (Deut. 8:17-18). Just read Deuteronomy chapter 28, where if we hearken diligently to the words of the Lord, and do all of His commandments
look at how he has promised to bless us!<br /><br />Alright, I guess that about sums up todays lesson. Read Duet chapter 28. Thats good stuff, and bless you all!
