Christianity Vs Conservatives??

[Barlow]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

where I'm coming from guys ... spent my entire childhood in around the church environment. Baptised in the Luthern Church .. we moved to Texas before I was in school and where members of an enormous Southern Baptist Church in Lubbock Texas (brother was baptised there, mother was music director) ... moved to Moline, Illinois years after. Family joined another Baptist church (very active) Moved back to Madison WI area .. returned to old farm community Luthern church .. Family wasn't getting 'fed' there so we searched and joined a large non-denominational church - very active. A bit after this time my mother became curriculum coordinator for a prodominant private school in the Madison area where I later graduated from... (you see the the significance of christianity in my up-bringing) .. after graduaution of High School I attended a very respected Bible College in the eastern states. Doubling my studies in Theology and youth ministry with an emphasis on missions. Spent Six months after recieving my degree in the mission field both in Mexico and the Dominican Republic directing and coordinating site work for American adult work crews and church youth groups while spreading the news- <br />-and that<br /> .... this time spent there dealing with the people, organisations and finances opened my eyes to a whole new animal!!<br /><br />after seeing what I've seen out of the mouths and actions of men and women that were "leaders" from across the states in all church venues ... sours me still today.<br /><br />...and to see someone openly profess his beliefs in Christianity and "teaching" or even refering to Biblical statutes and doctrine while showing such bile comments and acronyms turns my already twisted gut into a surgeons night mare.<br /><br />I'm not casting him to the wolfs ... I'm merely reminding him to watch his 'P's ' & 'Q's' because someone is reading this now, forming opinions based on actions. <br /><br />whew!! ....I'm spent!<br /><br />*edited spelling*

 

[aspeck]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

MY et al, yes, preachers are human, and yes, there are some bad ones in the profession, but I propose that those that are bad are in "the profession," not in it as a way of life. Not all have thousand dollar suits.... There are many more that have a real heart for ministry and the desire to help others, unfortunately they are not the ones that are flashy and that you see.<br /><br />In our church approximately 50% of the money that comes in to the general treasury (that is not counting the money that is directly designated for missions) goes out to home and foreign missions (anything from helping with groceries, fuel bills, to building and running a Biblical and Vocational Training School in Ghana). As for salaries, I am the highest paid "employee" in the church and I get $500 per month (every year the congregation wants to pay me more, but I would rather the money goes to those that need it more than I do). <br /><br />As for taxing the church, I would hate to loose some of that money that goes directly to helping people to the government. I think we do a lot more good with it, but that is just my opinion.<br /><br />SW, you are open about your faith and beliefs, so that makes you a target and holds you to a higher standard. This does not mean you act as something you are not, but be careful because what you say and do reflects on all that are in the ministry. Your first post was good, but watch your step after that, please.

 

[JB]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

I'll Amen Aspeck.

 

[hayhauler]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

I am a pastor of a local church. I pay the same income tax as anyone, more in fact because since the church can't match my social security I have to pay my own.<br /><br />I'll take that tax burden. If they want to tax my church on its profit they are welcome to, our income is enough to pay our utilities, help a few people and pay my salary (on which I've already mentioned that I'm taxed). I'd say we're a true non-profit.<br /><br />Now, if they want to tax churches on the basis of profit, I don't have a real problem with that, and all pastors should pay taxes based on our income, because we are in ministry we are not a ministry.<br /><br />SW, I'm sorry, I'm sure your post is a good one, but I didn't see what went before and I can't figure out WTH you are talking about. If it's about whether Christians are supposed to be for redistribution of wealth, because we're all supposed to live in communes anyway, then my vote is that it isn't required but it's an available option.

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

Barlow, way to hijack a thread and take it way off course. My e-mail address is toy4runr@mchsi.com. If you have a problem, e-mail me. However, I will address your concerns here, and explain why I use the letters you mentioned, which in speach I say "what the fornication", or more often, "what the fudge" a nod to Chef on South Park. But I'm sure you think I'm going to....dare I say it????....h*ll just for watching? I guess I'm not cut from the same cloth as most Christians. I use course language. I smoke. Up until recently I drank beer....lots of it. I have a long way to go before I am any good at all. But I really am working on it. I appreciate your rebuke Barlow; I deserve it, but I do want to explain myself, now that you bring it up. Anyhoo, here goes:<br /><br /><br />Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."<br /><br />This is pretty clear. Jesus explains further in Matthew 15:17-20, where the defiling statements are inumerated as "murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." None of these referrs to a euphemism, nor to any word for which an acceptable euphemism can used in mixed company. To illuminate my point, I will add the dictionary definition of it;<br /><br />Euphemism \ n: the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive word expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant; <br /><br />Ok, so assuming that WTF stands for What The ____, then the letter f stands as a euphemism for the word or expression that may offend or suggest something unpleasant. Nowhere in the bible does disallowed speach refer to euphemisms. Now if I were talking to anyone on the planet useing this term in a manner such as "See that hot babe? Boy I'd like to f her;" that is clearly a violation of the scripture in that I would be guilty speaking adultery. Otherwise, to me, it's just a word, a perfectly normal bodily function (ok, not a word I would ever use in a sermon, during ministry, or in polite converstion, but I do use the word ok?), and I only use words like that when I deam it appropriate. To me the death tax is a really big WTF!?!?! Fudge, ok? I am saying Fudge, like any of Chef's fine line of confectionaries. Sheesh... <br /><br />The way I understand the scriptures, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Jesus warns against talking about things like mudering someone, rapeing someone, discussing extra-marital sex, lieing about another person and so forth. I don't personally see where a word is so terrible to utter. I see it as being IDEAS that are sinnful, not simple words. What do you think Jesus is talking about in Matthew 15:17 anyway? What is so terrible about a harmless little ole word, that in and of it's self carries no constructive idea of sin, especially one that identifies an activity that is generally one of mans favorite activites? It is, to me, just a meaninless expletive, and not in the obscene sense of the word. Ok, I'm a bad preacher.....bad preacher....

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

Oh man, I'm gonna pay for that last post....

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

The stupidest is to bash what you think (s)he thinks or believes.<br />

JB,<br /><br />I guess the thing that ruffles my feathers the most is there are countless ways to find out what the catholic teachings are. Millions of people who would like nothing more than to clear up the misconseptions propogated by those who seek to gain by demonizing a specific group. My favorite is how all catholics are homophobes. If you take just a little effort you will see that catholics are not only on the forefront but far and away the leading religion with their actions not words, in the care of AIDS victims in this country. We never hear about the billions of christian acts performed in this country everyday, just the few bad acts that the media fixates on and the teachings that offend those who fear their impact. (the 10 commandments and the ACLU)

 

[kd6nem]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

Yep, SW. Here it comes.... SW, Bro, you have many times raised my eyebrows. As you know, the only Jesus a lot of folks will see is in us, imperfect as we are. Why He chose to use vessels like you & me I do not know. I'm sure glad He did though! So yes, please keep watching your step. But on the other hand, you are straight forward as they come. I'd much rather the rough edges (which we ALL have anyway) instead of plastic fake phony sanctimonious garbage any day. Just so we all keep steadily growing closer to Him & more like Him, right? <br /><br />Back to the apparent conflict that exists in some peoples minds- It is really quite simple. They do not have a clue about us, our beliefs, the Truth as found in scripture, or the foundation of this nation. As JB aptly said, they like to build fantasy people to attack. Too bad their perceptions are not supported by facts.<br /><br />I'll go back to the point I often fall back to: This country is what it is thanks to the foresight and wisdom of our founding fathers. Who were they? Most were strong Christians. Jefferson was a deist. Franklin, I don't remember his beliefs, though he may well have been a scoundrel in some respects. But each one of these men in some fashion held God in high regard. This molded their view of life in such a way as to be revealed in their writings and documents. Yes, in our Constitution. Was their any mention of welfare in their? Only as it pertains to the good of the whole country and to rights of individuals. Not at all in the socialistic sense. There was a very reasonable expectation that family take care of its own. (People didn't divorce, very few were single parents, families didn't often move away) When not possible for family to help, the local community, usually involving the local church would take care of legitimateunmet needs people had. In that day there was far less distinction between secular and sacred despite the ridiculous conclusions more recently drawn by courts who wished to smear the first amendment for reasons unknown to me. Who really understood the Constitution better than its authors?!!) While we have no evidence that they objected to helping others (indeed evidence to the opposite is likely to exist, though they probably didn't brag about it- if nothing else they certainly willingly and knowingly laid their life and their family's lives on the line for us so that we might be free from tyrrany!), they wisely and correctly saw that as a function for community not government. The Church in the US has admittedly fallen down badly on one of its obligations here, IMO. Also, sense of community is now highly endangered as well, sadly. That takes care of redistribution of wealth. That was never supposed to have been government's job biblically or otherwise. <br /><br />As to taxation, which is required to support that erroneous notion that socialization should be the tool to help, it therefore should be very limited since it is unnecessary for social programs which should not exist. The founding fathers revolted against England for HOW much tax? 3% on tea! A mere three percent! So what was their view of taxation? To be avoided as much as humanly possible. SW was right, no contradiction there either. IT IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB TO SUPPORT PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THOSE UNWILLING TO HELP THEMSELVES. That is why conservatives do not support massive charity without accountability. Now some conservatives may be stingy about helping people, but I know for an absolute fact that not all are. And money never was the real answer anyway. The answer lies in coming along side someone in need and staying long enough (in a very personal way, not in some bureaucratic institutional way) to help them to get to where they can fend for themself. Training, job skills, mentoring, help overcoming addictions, getting a better frame of mind, etc. are all part of this. An excellent investment, to put in capitalistic terms. Once they become as self sufficient as possible then they see how good it feels to contribute to society. THAT is succesful helping. The fiscal conservative in me is then happy since the helped one is no longer a money drain, the christian in me is happy their need is met. VERY COMPATIBLE! So far I have noticed very limited interest in serious accountability from the political left. I see money thrown, and thrown, and thrown. Then thrown some more. But where is the help getting up? Where is the accountability? There is some I do not doubt, but how many liberals routinely drive their nice SUV out of their nice neighborhood to go help someone? A few might, I don't know, but am sure many would prefer to just feel good about the tax money they send. (not so much out of THEIR pocket, right?). I DO know conservative christians who do that often, at their own expense. I believe there are genuinely compassionate people on both sides, OK? I respect anyone who does it, not just talks it. Especially when it comes to their own money and/or time instead of someone else's. <br /><br />SW is quite correct. The apparent contradiction between conservatism and faith in fact does not actually exist in principle. Nor in Scripture, certainly. Doesn't always exist in practice either, though perhaps there it is demonstrated more often than it should be still. The accusations as presented I find to be at least 95% unmerited and imagined. Now what I'd like to know is do these guys really do any better than they accuse us of doing?<br /><br /><br />"Feed a man a fish and you've fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you've fed him for a lifetime."

 

[kd6nem]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

Pointer,<br />Guess I missed something. I didn't notice any Catholic bashing. I hope you didn't somehow feel some sort of alienation going on. (Maybe it is good I missed it?) None intended from here, anyway.<br /><br />At the risk of jumping into somewhere I don't belong, just please understand that not all conservative evangelicals have it out for catholics! We might disagree on a few points of theology, but that doesn't mean there has to be animosity toward you. <br /><br />I'm aware of some of the differences between my evangelical view and some of the views within Catholicism, though there is probably a lot I don't know as well. Of course there remains much belief in common, also. And the diversity within both our camps! I'd enjoy a discussion on this topic, but this is neither the time nor place. Maybe offline sometime. Anyway, sorry for the frustration.

 

[rudeafrican]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

The biggest problem that I have with some so called Christians is their attitude of "I am a Christian therefore it's obvious I must be a good man" In fact the opposite is more true, you have to be a good man before you can become a Christian.<br />They use Christianity like a badge, like a "I can do and say what I like because I'm a Christian". This does not wash with me. These are also normally the ones that can quote Scriptures word for word and always find a passage that can justify there actions.

 

[PW2]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

That's the thing about the bible. You can use it to justify just about anything in human behaviour.<br />You can also use it condemn dang near anything as well.<br /><br />It is what is known as a flexible document.<br /><br />You would never get me to say that being a Christian and a conservative is incompatible, nor would being a a Christian and a liberal be incompatible. Whatever those labels mean.<br /><br />If you infer that God somehow favors conservatives, then you start to tread on shaky ground.<br /><br />I'm in the business of making and selling plywood, and it would be like me saying that because we are having hurricanes in Flordia, and the price of plywood is rising because of it, we in the industry must have god on our side. It's ludicrous on its face.<br /><br />And happily we are a nation led by men and laws, and not led by someone's interpretation of the bible and "what god wants"<br /><br />And if we take the sole issue of welfare and a social safety net, between the two extremes of "let them all starve" and "let's give them everything they want and make their life happy" there is indeed room for reasonable debate among the citizenry, and the laws we make, on where society best funtions, what programs are compassionate and what are enabling, and what approach is most cost effective, etc.<br /><br />It is the role of the citizens and the lawmakers they elect to determine the answer to this, and not up to god and the bible.<br /><br />Thankfully, our founding fathers recognized this.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

SCO asked; "MY, so what's your take? Is being Christian and Conservative proof of hypocrisy?"<br />I don't know sir... lots of levels of christians<br />and lots of levels of conservatives. I guess it<br />would have to come down to the individual level.<br />I do believe there are alot of hypocrites in<br />this world though. one quote that comes to mind;<br />"give unto ceaser that which is ceaser's..."<br /><br />are ALL preachers wearing $1,000 suits and $10K<br />diamond rings? no. MY comment was directed at the<br />ones who are, and there are MANY, but certainly<br />not "all". $10K could feed Aspeck's entire village<br />for maybe a year?<br />"easier to pass a camel through the eye of a<br />needle, than for a rich man to go to heaven"

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

Bearcat: Thanks for the good thoughts brother. Keep the faith, it isn't easy, but it sure is rewarding.<br /><br />Pointer: Catholic, Jehova Witness, Mormon, this religion has a very broad range of worshipers, the only thing we all have in common is Jesus. Thank God in heaven, THAT (as far as I can figure, according to the scripture) is good enough for God. I wish it were good enough for us. <br /><br />MellowYellow: Preachers with lots of bling-bling....well, they open themselves up to loads of critisism and are immediately suspect becuase they wear gaudy things. The bible tells us not to doll ourselves up in bobbles and jewels for church, but the bible tells us all kinds of stuff that we don't pay much attention to. I figure it like this. All of our worldly wealth flows from God. He as a good father wants to give us good gifts. Some preachers might want a $50,000 bass boat, while another preacher might want a Rolls. If God rewards thier work with that much money, who am I to tell them how to spend it. God has rewarded my family richly, but instead of buying lots of bling for ourselves, we give it away trying to help others. If God supplied me with a million dollars a day, I could still give it all away, because there are so many people out there who need it more than me.<br /><br />Everybody: I am pretty sure everyon knows that I was trying to reach out to BinLurkin. I hope he read this and learned something (remeber the "Kennebunkport Preacher From Louisiana?" post? I would like to reach out to the guy in a kind of intelligent way, and compassionate too; maybe he will look my first post here, see what the scripture has to say, and maybe change his mind about some things. Like, maybe he will see that he had some misconceptions regarding Christianity, maybe he will want to know more about us, or more about what the Word really does say. I mean, look at my screen name.......one at a time I am trying get folks to see so they can make up their own minds.<br /><br />And Finally: The social programs that our governemtn funds today were dreamed up when they were needed. It is funney that the Clinton Firearms Ban legislation was temporary, like a few years after he was out of office guns would no longer be a problem.....yet the legislation creating these social programs didn't calculate an end to the Great Depression. They didn't write the laws concerning these depression era social programs with regard for a "Post Deression" economic recovery wherby they would be phased out (maybe somebody way back then had already figured out that they could turn those programs and the people affected by them, into a political fortress?). I contend that America got along fine before these programs were instituted, and would have a healthier economic outlook if they were all abolished today. Look at the numbers folks. Social Security will eventually crush the federal budget, and thanks to self serving politions, and misguided special interests such as the AARP, the real economic danger facing future generations is NOT deficit spending and the National Debt as stated by......hmmm.....(was it Snapper? Was it you Snap?) it is Social Security. <br /><br />Peace and Shalom

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

if god rewards their work with that much money,<br />they should use it to ease the suffering of our<br />less fortunate brothers, not buy a Rolls... that's<br />just wrong IMO.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

Bearcat,<br /><br />There are a handful of members who have a ill-conceived view of what a catholic/christian is. You will find the hatred spun into several threads in the last few months and it is troubling to me. I see the fire of hated fueled by the media, movies, politicians, athiests, agnostics and activists. I have been in literally hundreds of churchs and attended thousands of masses and not one time did I hear it is gods will to kill a fag, or starve the poor, to be rich and selfish, in fact if you attend most churchs I know they have initiatives for the starving in other countries (operation rice bowl), help the poor in our country, state, and local community.(the salvation army, st. vincent de paul society, christian schools, etc.). We spend a tremendous amout of time and effort to villify christians and re-write history regarding the positive influences the church has brought to this country, 200 years ago right up to today. There are people here who have posted things that are just 100% wrong. For example, it was stated that it is inconsistant to be a republican and a christian. On its face it is laughable, but tell the same lie often enough and in our shallow pop culture it becomes true.<br /><br />My question is: Is a religion without rules truely a religion? <br /><br />I had given up on trying to educate these people because I felt if I wanted to be sucessful, this would not be the format to do so, but SW took the time to point out what I had seen and addressed it. I don't really care about the WTF or whether his spelling or punctuation was off. He is doing what has made christians so sucessful over the centuries, committment to their faith. <br /><br />I have, with my limited knowledge of Islam, restrained from attacking it as a religion based on some whacko's who are using (ba5terdizing) a religion to justify their savage acts. The simple among us, demonize religion to further their goals or positions without regard for what the religion is or what it stands for and show their true ignorance to those who know better in the process. It is truely a sad state of affair. It is also my religious experience to forgive and forget.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

just saw this bumper sticker and had to add here:<br />"GOD DON'T FAVOR ANY GROUP OVER ANOTHER, RELIGION<br />DOES"

 

[Jeff Peacock]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

I'm a pastor in Alberta, Canada. I just wanted to address a couple of things. Firstly, the "bling-bling" issue. The most prominent "pastors" you see are the ones wearing the 10 K threads and driving the 50 K Rolls Royce. It's the vast majority of pastors that you don't see I'd like to mention. I started in the job I'm in now making roughly 20,000 a year. Canadian, so that's roughly 15,000 American. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree and 4 years of experience in my field, and my salary as of now is roughly 30,000 a year. I have a wife and a 6 week old baby girl. That's likely the range my salary will stay in (perhaps as high as 40,000) for the rest of my life. When I look at my pay-check, I make roughly 9.50 an hour. I'm speaking from my own experience, and understand that I bear no ill-will about my salary- it's the life God's called me to, and I'm willing to follow. I just wanted to let you know what the real numbers look like, rather than just the more public ones you see. The problems begin to arise when people get involved. What I mean is this: last year, I bought a wreck of a boat, a 14 ft. Fibreglas closed-bow run-about with a 35 HP Chrylser motor. I fixed it up, put in a lot of new equipment, and sold it for about 4 times what I paid for it. When I bought it, it didn't run, and I over-hauled it. With the money I made on that sale, I bought a fairly modest 16 ft aluminum fishing boat, worth about 8,400 dollars. We have had to face some questions from a few people in our congregation, i.e. why didn't we give the money to the poor or send it to missions workers in Africa. In my mind, these people have no right to question my financial decisions; beyond that, I feel that I worked hard to fix up that boat in order to pay for most of the new one, and that God has blessed us with the boat we have now. With that in mind, it's sometimes hard to answer people who tell us we should have sent the money to the poor without getting angry. Our experience aside, this is the second thing I wanted to address. So many of the posts above are concerned with hypocritical people. The Bible teaches that all men are hypocritical- that we've all "fallen short". There's no one righteous. So why do we expect any different? Why are we surprised when we see jerks and manipulators and hypocrites in the church? Sure, we'd all like to live perfect lives after having received Christ. It won't happen until we see glory. But I can tell you that my faith is not based on the inherent goodness of the people around me in the church; if it were, I would most certainly have left here long ago. My faith is based on the one True and living God who has promised me that "he who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it". Don't base your thoughts about God on his people; they'll always fall short. Expect it, suck it up, and move on. We've got far greater things to accomplish in this life than to bicker, complain and argue about who's "nicer".

 

[Jeff Peacock]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

I was going to tell the first poster (jokingly) that he's got too much time on his hands to post that long of a message. Apparently, I've joined that group of people with too much time!!

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

excellent heart-felt post, ty <br />I would like to ask a couple questions please.<br />does your church "give" you things like a house<br />and car etc. in addition to your salary?<br />as for the boat, I would say you "earned" it <br />yourself. would be diff. if $ came from congregation.<br />JC did,'t ask Saul to sell his boat

 

[Barlow]

Re: Christianity Vs Conservatives??

First off pardon my ignorance as to proper Forum, post, thread , etc.,..etiquette ... I'm a 'newbee'(??) here and a bit ignorant as to how this stuff works. Thanks thus far to welcoming me.<br /><br />SW - pardon my harsh words, lack of 'tact' in my previous post but, I thought it correct not to mix words and a delicate touch in doing so just wasn't in mind -obviously-. <br />Please understand this or try to.<br /> I wasn't 'attacking' you, your beliefs and your passions - same goes for the rest of the members here. Forgive the harsh path I took .. <br />please understand .. I'm not an 'active' or 'participating' Christian or what you may deem 'Godly' ... as far as your personal life is concerned Bro, it's none of my business. No one's perfect and I for one am not!! You wear your Faith on your sleeve .. and that my friend is commendable and I'm sure your acting out of the passion you feel. That also is commendable and very respectable!! <br /><br />As to the the explanation given on the acronym .. LOL ... I'm laughing still because I misinterpreted/misunderstood your 'definition' or usage of the acronym. Personally, I'm fine with South Park ... "burn me at the stake also", I say. But, to the the 'untrained eye' the meaning in which it was meant is moot.<br />To further explain and to help understand where I'm coming from here ... the average outside observer that has 'been around' ( refering to someone as myself ) would think something different as you explained earlier .<br /><br /> "Communication does not consist of the transmission of meaning. Meanings are not transmitted, nor transferable. Only messages are transmittable, and meanings are not in the message, they are in the message-user." --David Berlo, The process of communication (Holt, Rinehart, Winton: New York 1960) p. 175; cited in Dean C. Barnlund, "Toward a meaning-centered philosophy of communication," Journal of Communication (University of Kansas: Lawrence december 1962) vol. XII, no. 4, p. 200 <br /><br />SW ... believe me ..I wanted to contact you privately before hand - but thought since the matter was public ... to just go with it. People please don't think less of soul winner .. I'm sure intensions were pure .. I believe it was my difficulty understanding ... please forgive. My past bitterness may have shown through. <br /> <br />To those of you here who are 'true' and active in your churches and with your congregations ... good work. <br /><br />Now that I feel I've tried explaining this/my-self to the best of my ability (geeze - I hope I did ...) please understand I do not profess to be an active member in the Christian community ... rather someone who's studied religion(s) Christianity and Faith and communications. <br /><br />NO, I'm not perfect either... Just a fool with a boat and a few fishing rods that likes to burn gas.