Bow eye safety chain?

[haulnazz15]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

If having EVERY boater in the country spend $20 on a safety chain would ONLY save ONE LIFE I think it would be WELL worth it.


"If I had a $10,000 boat I would have one"......... That's really sad that a $10,000 boat is worth more than the lives of the family coming the other way....... really sad.......

Again, you guys keep trying to prove your point via reductio ad absurdum. I've still yet to see a link to a major injury or FATALITY in this thread. It's always "is it worth someone's life", when the risk of actually killing someone is so minute as to be damn near infinite. I'm not saying that it's the safest way, but it is legal, and in the Kansas, Okla, Texas, Arkansas area, it is quite common to see boats that don't have a safety chain. My comment about the boat value was limited to saving the boat in question to avoid a loss of a larger monetary asset, not a comparison on the value of human life. It's also not about "it only happens to other people", it's about the level of risk acceptance.

 

[sutor623]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

In my estimation, less than 1% of all boat trailers have them.

it is just the tiniest bit more risky than not using one, statistically speaking.

The fact is, boats coming off of trailers and causing serious injury or death is infinitesimally small

Funny how you keep asking for statistics, when apparently you already know them all.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

Funny how you keep asking for statistics, when apparently you already know them all.

No kidding..... we're wrong because we don't have a study to cite with the exact number of deaths but he doesn't either

Heck I have never seen a study telling me how many children die each year from playing with guns or consuming rat poison but you can be that I keep them both securely locked up and out of the reach of my niece and nephew.

I will say that I am NOT professing that a "chain" is needed on every boat but I do STRONGLY believe that at a minimum every boat needs more than one attachment at the stern and more than one attachment at the bow. On longer and thus higher speed trips I add more straps than on shorter low speed trips....

I also think as I have stated before that MOST people GREATLY underestimate the dangers that they expose themselves to and that they expose others too.

Last winter I was on the phone with a friend who was driving in ice and snow in possibly Idaho IIRC when he blurted out a couple obscenities and I heard a minute or so of banging noises.... He then came back on and said a truck going the other way had jacknifed and lost about a 20' boat from its trailer that had crossed the median and that he had dropped the phone while he swerved and ran off of and back onto the road to miss hitting it head on... No he wasn't killed but he COULD have been..... It wasn't the other driver's acceptance of the risk that saved his life but rather it was his own alertness and reflexes.... Had he been slower maybe it would have been the diesel engine and an airbag along with his seat belt that saved him... or maybe my friend would no longer be with us... who knows

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

some people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post, for support rather than illumination.

 

[Rancherlee]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

Must be regional. I'm from MN and I don't think I've ever seen a boat without a safety chain.


I actually assumed they all came from the factory like that. Just like having lights on a trailer, standard.

My friends boats winch slipped and his boat flew of the back of his trailer and hit the ground when he was pulling it out of the water. He took a big chip out of his skeg but it would have been worse if he didn't have a safety chain to stop it. The whole boat could have landed on the concrete.

Pretty sure it required in Minnesota to have a "securing device" other than the winch so that why. I know the check for them if you ever get stopped by the MN DOT for a "safety check" and they also check for a transom strap(s) also. This is just as bad as guys that put the ATV's in the back of their truck and close the tailgate thinking everything will be "OK" but my buddy at the local body shop sees 1-2 trucks a year with the rear window/cab smashed because someone panic stopped without having the wheeler strapped down.

 

[Taxus812]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

So chains or straps? My boat came from the manufacturer with two transom straps and one bow strap in addition to the winch strap.

The transom, bow and winch straps will all work together to hold the boat from sliding backwards off the trailer.

Now for a head on. To leave the trailer, the boat will want to climb up, or go to the side of the winch support frame member and front roller to come forward.

If you have a tightened strap on the front restricting all vertical movement and you have the bow seated on the roller with a tight winch strap, the winch mount frame member will take all the forward movement along with the transom straps. The boat is not likely to break free unless the trailer structurally fails at three points. (assumes you have properly sized straps)

Chains have a much higher breaking strength but I can see a flaw. They look to be loose. If you are in a head on collision, the chains are sitting loose so the winch strap is the only thing preventing vertical movement (keeping the bow on the winch support fame member allowing it to absorb the forward energy) . If the winch strap fails (and that's a lot of force), the bow is being allowed vertical movement that comes to an abrupt stop. I think it is more likely that the eye could simply snap off once you get that kind movement. Then all that is left is your transom straps and friction on the bunks

Chains would win if they can be tightened. How are you tightening them?
The turnbuckle wins all around but I would be hated at our ramp while I tightened it. (there is a one at a time staging area)

 

[dingbat]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

some people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post, for support rather than illumination.

+1....

 

[dingbat]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

Now for a head on. To leave the trailer, the boat will want to climb up, or go to the side of the winch support frame member and front roller to come forward.

If you have a tightened strap on the front restricting all vertical movement and you have the bow seated on the roller with a tight winch strap, the winch mount frame member will take all the forward movement along with the transom straps. The boat is not likely to break free unless the trailer structurally fails at three points. (assumes you have properly sized straps)

Chains have a much higher breaking strength but I can see a flaw. They look to be loose. If you are in a head on collision, the chains are sitting loose so the bow strap is the only thing preventing vertical movement (keeping the bow on the winch support fame member allowing it to absorb the forward energy) . If the winch strap fails (and that's a lot of force), the bow is being allowed vertical movement that comes to an abrupt stop. I think it is more likely that the eye could simply snap off once you get that kind movement. Then all that is left is your transom straps and friction on the bunks

Chains would win if they can be tightened. How are you tightening them?
The turnbuckle wins all around but I would be hated at our ramp while I tightened it. (there is a one at a time staging area)

How tight the chain is has nothing to do with it. On impact, the front of the trailer remains stationary while the rear continues in motion. This causes the front of the trailer to drop and the rear to rotate (lift) around the pivot point of the fulcrum, the ball of the truck.

If the transom straps hold, the boat isn't going anywhere. The boat will move forward until retained by the length of the transom or bow strap. If the transom straps give way, the rear of the boat is free to rotate (pivot) around bow or winch strap connection. At that point, the bow chain or strap does nothing but keep the boat attached to the trailer.

The bigger concern are the transom straps. To put things into perspective: A 2,000 boat traveling at 40 miles per hour would produce roughly 21,100 pounds of force on impact. What are your transom straps rated for?

 

[NYBo]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

Last winter I was on the phone with a friend who was driving in ice and snow...

Anyone else see the potentially contributing factor here?:facepalm:

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

Sure, he picked up his phone causing another driver on the other side of a divided highway to lose control and at the same time causing the other driver's boat to come off the trailer... the boat was then drawn like a beacon directly toward the transmitter in the phone.......

seriously?......... AFAIK there is no law against talking on the phone while driving unless in a CMV.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

Taxus, the primary purpose of the chain is to back up the winch apperatus, whether the strap or the ratchet lever on the gears. The ratchet lever is the most likely to fail (usually by slipping loose). Next, an old strap or cable may break but that's more likely while winching up. If you have a power winch, it's just the clutch holding it back.

None of the devices are likely to do much in a high-speed head-on--just my opinion, no tests. So the focus is on devices to secure the boat during (a) normal operations including turns, starts and stops (b) at the ramp to prevent premature launch and (c) to secure the boat to the trailer for low-speed incidents.

Granted, the shape of the bow at the bow stop is an inclined plane that is going to tend to send the boat up and over, but it has to clear off a lot of gear to do that. Between the chain, strap/cable, ratchet lever and bow eye, I'd say the lever is the weakest and the bow eye next.
And I have had a bow eye pull out, leaving the cable and safety chain firmly attached and dangling in the breeze; the strap across the gunwales stopped the boat after it rolled back about 8" (fast roller trailer; launches with a gentle push with one hand).

This is why I recommend against tightening the chain between the trailer and bow eye. The constant bouncing against the metal-through-plastic bow eye will do way more harm to the boat, but tightening down is (a) unnecessary at low impact/normal driving and (b) useless at high impact.

But if you must tighten a turnbuckle you can always pull away from the ramp and then do it .

As an aside all this talk has made me more aware at the ramp the importance of the safety chain. Yesterday I was getting ready to launch a 21' on rollers, had unhooked, then realized I needed to retie my bow line as it was going over the rail. If I had untied it, the boat would be completely loose--just for a second until I put the line back on the cleat. But I stopped and hooked the chain back up, got tied and all set, unhooked, and just to test, gave the slightest push on the boat--one hand. back it went and took off. I could not have stopped it mid-roll with the bow line (which I tied off to the winch post). Efficient when used correctly; scary when not!

 

[Taxus812]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

The bigger concern are the transom straps. To put things into perspective: A 2,000 boat traveling at 40 miles per hour would produce roughly 21,100 pounds of force on impact. What are your transom straps rated for?

Really good point my transom straps are only rated for 5000 lbs. now im thinking what are the transom u-bolts rated for as well .

Taxus, the primary purpose of the chain is to back up the winch apperatus, whether the strap or the ratchet lever on the gears. The ratchet lever is the most likely to fail (usually by slipping loose). Next, an old strap or cable may break but that's more likely while winching up. If you have a power winch, it's just the clutch holding it back.

That makes perfect sense to me now. I was thinking that folks were using it to secure the boat to the trailer in transport. I personally had a winch fail but I have a bunk type trailer and we were able to put a strap on to pull it out of the water to get the transom straps on.


I guess I can take away this;
using a three point tie down system (strap, chain, turnbuckles) in normal operation (and low speed avoidance) the boat is not going to simply fall off the trailer. High speed collision, all bets are off.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

Sure, he picked up his phone causing another driver on the other side of a divided highway to lose control and at the same time causing the other driver's boat to come off the trailer... the boat was then drawn like a beacon directly toward the transmitter in the phone.......

seriously?......... AFAIK there is no law against talking on the phone while driving unless in a CMV.

But again, it's being considered an unsafe practice (just like not using a bow chain) which isn't prohibited in most states and doesn't have much in the way of factual statistics to support it being safe/unsafe. It is basically the EXACT same argument we are having over the bow chain.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

Funny how you keep asking for statistics, when apparently you already know them all.

Well, that's why I used "in my estimation" as a qualifier that it wasn't FACTUALLY based, only my personal observation of the rigs in my region. I took the time to research what I could for accidents involving towed trailers, as well as looking for any information on the number of accidents in which the boat (or load) left the trailer. I found next to nothing in both cases. Again, there is likely some bias in my research as I don't have a large sample size, and a thorough database with which to pull from. Out of all car wrecks, those involving non-commercially towed equipment was less than 1% of all wrecks. I couldn't find more than a notation or two in those results which indicated that the load had departed from the trailer, and NONE of those involved a fatality.

I asked to be proven wrong with facts or at least some link to data. The only thing I received was a half dozen newspaper articles or pictures of boats on the ground across a several year span. We can try and accident-proof the boat to the point of insanity with little effect on a true reduction in the chance you will severely injure or kill another person. Again, I never said it was silly to have a bow chain, I simply said it wasn't illegal in most states to tow without one, and that my trailers have never had one, nor where they equipped to have one.

Now if someone were to suggest not using a bow strap at all (I have seen it done), or not using a transom strap, I would consider that too much of a risk to accept, and illegal in many states.

Pardon me for requesting data (whether in the form of those evil statistics or not) to make an informed decision.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

But again, it's being considered an unsafe practice (just like not using a bow chain) which isn't prohibited in most states and doesn't have much in the way of factual statistics to support it being safe/unsafe. It is basically the EXACT same argument we are having over the bow chain.

EH I wouldn't say exactly..... The person on the phone is able to drop the phone if they need to when they see danger approaching whereas the person towing the boat does not have a chance to chain it up when the see it falling off in the mirror... I WILL grant however that phone usage while driving COULD be a contributing factor in a crash and even a death IF the driver allows it to take their mind off of what they were doing and I will agree that if all cell phone usage while driving was stopped it is very likely that many lives would be saved so I can certainly see some similarities in the debates. The core of the debate remains that without a safety chain or other additional bow and stern tie downs do greatly increase the chance of an injury and or fatality due to the risk of the boat leaving the trailer.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

... AFAIK there is no law against talking on the phone while driving unless in a CMV.

Illegal to Talk (Hand Held) in 12 States, Illegal to Text in 41.

 

[sutor623]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

Well this is getting really exciting......:excitement:

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

In Virginia it's illegal to dial, text or read a cell phone while hooking up a safety chain....

 

[sutor623]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

In Virginia it's illegal to dial, text or read a cell phone while hooking up a safety chain....

Yea the good ole commonwealth.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Bow eye safety chain?

In Virginia it's illegal to dial, text or read a cell phone while hooking up a safety chain....

But what if your safety chain has a hands-free device?