Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Again..sorry for the late reply..been kinda tied up ..

Thanks YD. Would you please take a look at pic # 2 & 5 above. I want to glass the stringers and completely seal them first and then glass the bulkhead into it to make sure that there is less chance for water to find its way into the joint. Will this method be an equivalent to the factory's and will provide the same strength for the joint? The other question is, the glass on the stringers has no adhesion to the wood. Is this OK?

You are talking about sealing and glassing the bulks First..then instal and glass tab ? or seal ..install..then glass the whole thing together ? Both ways will work. I like to resin seal..prep for glass..then dryfit..then Do ONE Lam session. ( without the 45 deg wood angle strips.

Guys, I know my project doesn't measure up to some of the fantastic work some of you did here but it is work in progress and I really need your support. This question is important to me and I appreciate if you take the time to tell me what you think.

No worries .. your being looked after .. Sometimes replies take longer then others because of our own schedules ( I wouldnt want someone feeling abandoned if I take a camping trip with the kids for 3 days ).

Also, Woodonglass wrote this yesterday in the Checking th Transom thread
"If you have access to the INSIDE of the transom, you should get down as LOW and as close to the Drain tube as possible. Using a 3/8 drill with a 1/4" drill bit drill into the transom no more than .3/4 to 1 inch deep. DO NOT drill all the way thru. Drill several holes spaced 6" apart and at various Heights on the transom. Check the drill shavings. If they are Light tan and dry. GOOD. If Dark Brown and WET or Powdery BAD. If all is well fill the holes with 3M 5200 Sealant. If BAD Replace the transom."

If you take a look at my transome core in the picture above you will find it brown and it is a little moist. Should I start worrying about my transom now?

If your trans is Brown AND Moist .. then yea.. you might want post some pics of the results of your core samples ( I dont see pics of that ).

YD.

PS. Please Dont drill " as close as you can to the drain tube". If you want to check the trans at the drain plug..remove it ( It probably needs a reseal anyways ).

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Glad to hear that I am being looked after. Did not mean to be demanding but believe me what is worse ? much worse ? than this overwhelming amount of work is to feel that you are on your own with no one to ask for advice. Anyways.. I was talking about the joint between the bulkhead and the stringers. These where wood on wood attached some staples and the WHOLE joint was glassed together. Because of this and when I removed the bulkheads, the stringers became unglassed at the joint. Like this....

My question was, when I rebuild, should I do it like Bayliner did; fasten the new bulkheads to the unglassed portion of the stringers ? wood on wood ? and then tape bulkheads and glass over the whole joint. Or, should I glass the portion of the stringers that is showing first then cut the new bulkheads to fit and tape them to glassed stringers? This configuration is wood (Bulkheads) to glass (that covers stringers) I am not sure which configuration has the better strength!
About the core sample of the transom, here is the picture I was refereeing to

Does this looks OK to you. Do I need to post a clearer picture?

Would you also elaborate on the last post script? I am not sure what are you trying to say. Almost everyone here said try to get as close to the drain as possible for core sampling. What am I missing?

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Well, thats a Little bigger than a 1/4" hole. If you are saying the wood shavings from these samples are damp and wet then I'd suggest you take more samples at other locations on the transom with a smaller drill bit and go a little deeper into the wood, put some tape on the drill bit so you can tell when you're about 1" deep. He is saying not to Drill right up against the Drain tube and that is NOT what I meant. It is sometimes difficut to get down to that area in the bilge. If You CAN get down to the Drain tube drill some holes 2 -3 inches in proximity to the drain tube and see what you get. This is a primary spot for rot to begin. If you get the same damp wet shavings there then you will probably need to replace the transom.

 

[wa_ssv197]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

You live in Seattle, its always damp! J/K
Nice project and good to see another Seattleite here!

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

OOOk..now I understand about your stringer/bulkhead question..

Yes I would Glass the stringer first and independent ... THEN shape and install/glass your bulks . That way if the tabbing ( for some reason ) failed your sealed on your stringers.

The Main reason why they put the stringer/bulkhead system together like that is all boiled down to time and patterns.
If they glassed each boats stringers first..then put the bulkheads in ..the measurement would always differ from boat to boat ( making those guys in the woodshop go bonkers..or the guys who got the minibulks go nutso because of over/under cut pieces from the woodshop ..).

Any rate..yup..your good to go with your plan ( A good plan at that ).

Using a paddle bit for core sample is not really a good choice .. you should use a small 1/4" bit ( Like WOG said ) for presample cores.

IF you wanted a full core like you Kinda did..you would use a Hole saw and set the depth for about 3/4" .. back the saw out and pop the whole sample out in one piece.

As far as the sampling around your drain plug.. I think WOG has explained his post ( Which is no longer here for some reason ).

I mean You dont want to start drilling directly around your drain plug. And like I said .. you probably want to Reseal that tube anyways.

Can you get a closeup shot of the lower core please .

YD.

PS. If it makes you feel any better..I can get my moisture meter and get High readings on Most transoms and stringers in just about Most boats in the marina. .. So Its time to replace when either your already in full blown resto mode..or Before it becomes a real issue with safety.

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

You live in Seattle, its always damp! J/K
Nice project and good to see another Seattleite here!

Yes, PITA. It is started raning today while I am in the middle of grinding. I had to work under the tarp.

IF you wanted a full core like you Kinda did..you would use a Hole saw and set the depth for about 3/4" .. back the saw out and pop the whole sample out in one piece.

issue with safety.

This wasn't a paddle bit, it was a hole saw. I still have the round cut outs. I will glass these later. I will drill few more
samples in the transom and see how it looks. I will post some pictures tomorrow.

Thank you all of your support.

PS. I blow my grinder today :facepalm:. I kew this may happen and I had a brand new one ready to go. I will get a spare tomorrow. I am about 1/2 way done with the grinding

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Grinding is still going. Guys, don't compromise when it comes to safety gear. Take a look at this



The glove took the hit for me. By the time it got to my hand, it was just a scratch.

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Guys, time for questions
1- If I am going to paint the interior do I need to add wax to the resin I will use for the last layer of fiberglass? I understand I don?t need to if I will use gelcoat but what if I will use paint?
2- Before I removed my old bulkheads, I realized that they are not completely vertical to the hull when it setting flat on the trailer. I am not sure if this was by design or just a sloppy job from the builders. My plan is to make sure that all horizonial surfaces are totally flat using water scale and then laydown the new bulkheads vertical. Is this the correct way of building or should I trace the old ones no matter what angel they are?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

1.) I would recommend using wax in the final coat if you are NOT going to Gelcoat but ARE going to paint. If you don't the Resin will remain tacky for a LONNNGGG time.
2.) Does/Did your previous deck have a slope forward to aft? In my experience the bulkheads are installed vertical to the stringers but if there is a slope in the stringers it can give the appearance that the bulkheads are slightly "Tilted"

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Thanks wood. On a related note, is wax required for the resin to cure regardless or is it required to prepare the surface for painting? For example, the bulkheads under the deck with not receive any finish coat of any kind. Do I still need to add wax to the resin while laying the final layer of glass on them?

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Just a Low down on WAX ..

Wax additive is used as a "Surfacing Agent"

What the hello is a Surfacing Agent ? What does it do ??

Its just a coating that comes up to the surface of the resin ( gel or just plain lam resin ).
Why your Surface becomes tacky is because the Solvents in the resin and hardener Flash off the peroxide/colbalt etc. ( Solvents flash off the needed components to create the proper reaction on the Surface cure ).

Under the Surface the resins will react and cure properly. ( NO worries ).

You can use PVA or other additives that dont contain WAX ( I dont WAX ANY resin unless its a blind layup ( cannot see or get to after the install )).

You can Acetone wipe your Surface uncured resin ( if it occurs ) without worry of mistakenly Spreading around wax that you can not see or feel ( making the next coat Unknown bonding ).

Basically..adding "WAX" to your resins for repair is NOT needed or recommended IMO.

Now adding wax to your surface Brushed on gel is a good thing..Your going to Grind off All gel if an other repair is needed anyways...but if your done with a layup..and think " hmm..I could use another few layers of glass in that corner " .. with Everything covered in wax would not be my first choice of Perfect prep conditions if you know what I mean .

If you want to Paint over your last coat of resin..then use a Patch Aid of some kind .. scuff and paint. It should cure to a non-wax surface that does not require some kind of "de-waxing" agent ..

More info just ask

YD.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Thanks wood. On a related note, is wax required for the resin to cure regardless or is it required to prepare the surface for painting? For example, the bulkheads under the deck with not receive any finish coat of any kind. Do I still need to add wax to the resin while laying the final layer of glass on them?

No, Wax is NOT required for anything except for the FINAL layer of resin on the Deck. YD is correct that you could use a Patch Aid (Google It) but just as easy to use the wax and then sand it down and Paint.

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Guys,

Demolition is over and I am ready for glassing the bulkheads. I have question, are there any preference between PB and PL as bedding material? PL needs to be left alone to cure for about 48 hours I am also not sure if Acetone will affect it when I wipe down before glassing. PB will cure much faster and I can combine the bedding and fillet in one step but will it accommodate flexing and movement like PL does?
Thanks in advance

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

The building has started!! I finished the bulkhead near the cabin and the one near the transom. I figured if I got these done I can run a leveler between them to get me an accurate hight of whatever bulkheads in between. Here is the foam template for the one near the cabin

I had a little set back today. Bayliner installed two small pieces of plywood as backing plates for the screws of the boat trims. Of course without proper coating or water proofing. The water found its way through the screws and these two backing plates were gone long ago. Instead of following Bayliner foot steps, I decided to use Starboard marine material. This thing is
awesome. In a week or so , 5200 will make it a permanent part of the transom

This is a closeup of the - starboard side - transom core sample that shows in the picture above. The wood is WET there is no way to deny that - even though I tried - but the wood is not rotten as you can see. It is not even brown. Golden yellow, kinda. The black hole in the middle is from the drill bit hole, it is not rot. What is the right thing to do now guys?!! Should I kiss this season good bye and get the transom done or wait couple of seasons - or until another core sample gives me the green light - to do it??!!! The most important thing for me is the safty of my family. What do you think this picture suggests?

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Well I dont know what everyone says..but I think your good to go.

1. PL Vs. PB .. Sorry cant answer that..never used 5200 or PL to Seat bulks/stringers. I have only used Fairing compound ( red microbaloons or lightweight filler to just bond the things so they dont move during the Lam process.

2. One thing to consider about using starboard .. It does Not bond well to basically anything lol. so its a Non-sealed backer plate only. ( You should be fine as long as you bed the pilot holes well for your tabs before installation.

3. Your fine at the moment on your "wet" wood that is not rotten. It would be like taking a core sample of a tree that is still wet and suggest you need to cut it down because its Weak. LOL .. its only strong because its wet . Wet wood is not Weak wood .. its just that in for boats the wet wood will eventually rot out ( could take years and years depending on storage and current encapsulation ).

Very nice using that foam board for your forms .. looking good so far.

YD.

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Hi everyone.

Can CSM go bad or lose its characteristics over time?

I was trying to lay CSM over a piece of 2*4 today and the strands didn?t want to lay flat no matter what I do. I used roller with poly. I purchased the roll few months ago on craigslist; it is old and I got it cheap. Sorry I couldn?t take a picture; my hands were so sticky and did not want to ruin my phone. The wood looked like a Hedgehog before scraped all the glass off. Now, I am thinking maybe it was the roller and it may lay flat with a brush. What do you think? BTW, there was a post recently with the guy trying to fiberglass a transom or a panel and it looked exactly like what I had. I will try to search for it and post a link to it.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Sounds like un-prepped wood ( resin coated even though 2x4s are pretty good about taking resin and mat without the full blown "plywood" prep the you would normally do ) or CSM that got wet.

Is the mat brittle or hard to fold ?

Fresh mat is like a tortilla . wet mat is like a half toasted tortilla ..

YD.

 

[DeepBlue2010]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Thanks YD for always being there with answers to my questions. If the definition of ?prepped wood? is to coat it with resin first and let it cure before glassing, it was prepped. This is cedar if it makes any difference. I checked the piece of CSM I used and it felt a little hard. The rest of the roll is soft like another new CSM I bought. Maybe when I roll enough to get back to the same area, it will become brittle again, I did not try this yet. If it does, does this means that this roll is shot?


The engine is out ? finally ? and I get to take a closer look at the transom. I am so puzzled by what I see. When I tried to hit the area under the transom plate with screw drive I got it in with almost no effort. The fiberglass skin is delaminated. But when I took a core sample from this area, the wood is as yellow as it may get. Brown and dark and wet way above the drain area as you can see in the previous pictures I posted and yellow as new right above the drain, the area that is more prone to rot than any other!!!
Also, when I was unscrewing the transom plate, water was releasing with a pressure sound as the plate gets loose. It was not much, but it is water in the transom nonetheless.

I don?t know how to make sense of this but I started second guessing myself. Am I doing unnecessary work just for the heck of it? I am thinking ? since I got this far ? to at least take the fiberglass skin off and see what is going on underneath. After all, I can just fiberglass over it if it doesn?t need to be replaced.

What do you think?!

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Bayliner 2252 cruiser restoration

Thanks YD for always being there with answers to my questions. If the definition of ?prepped wood? is to coat it with resin first and let it cure before glassing, it was prepped. This is cedar if it makes any difference. I checked the piece of CSM I used and it felt a little hard. The rest of the roll is soft like another new CSM I bought. Maybe when I roll enough to get back to the same area, it will become brittle again, I did not try this yet. If it does, does this means that this roll is shot?

Prepped wood for lams is when the wood stops absorbing resin coats.

You can try to peel off a few layers off the roll and see if its gets better. The roll is not shot .. you just have to cut out the dry crap and piece in your mat layers ( it does not hurt a bit if your mat is not in one solid piece like it does with your 1708 or whatever other glass material you use ).

I am so puzzled by what I see. When I tried to hit the area under the transom plate with screw drive I got it in with almost no effort. The fiberglass skin is delaminated. But when I took a core sample from this area, the wood is as yellow as it may get. Brown and dark and wet way above the drain area as you can see in the previous pictures I posted and yellow as new right above the drain, the area that is more prone to rot than any other!!!
Also, when I was unscrewing the transom plate, water was releasing with a pressure sound as the plate gets loose. It was not much, but it is water in the transom nonetheless.

I don?t know how to make sense of this but I started second guessing myself. Am I doing unnecessary work just for the heck of it? I am thinking ? since I got this far ? to at least take the fiberglass skin off and see what is going on underneath. After all, I can just fiberglass over it if it doesn?t need to be replaced.

What do you think?!

Hmm..I dont know why your core samples would be good but you can punch a screwdriver through. When you say hit the area under the transom.. do you mean your hull ?

You can always just cut away sections of your skin just to explore a little more without ripping off your whole skin ( which might be impossible if the skin is not delammed ) .

YD.