Are you really a liberal?

[QC]

First, this is not a troll. I would much prefer that this thread fostered some intelligent responses, not hate mail . . . I enjoy good debate and good discussion. That to me is what Dockside Chat is all about.<br /><br />I have always called myself a "radical middle of the roader". Fact is that today I am considered by many to be a staunch conservative although I haven't really changed my views that much. I believe that even the iboaters that consider themselves liberal or progressive hold more conservative beliefs than some might like to admit. This link is to a list of contemporary liberal positions. If the shoe doesn't fit . . .<br /><br />Are you a liberal? <br /><br />BTW, Dennis Prager is one of the clearest thinkers I have ever listened to. He is a self described Kennedy liberal and was a Democrat. He is now a Republican, because he believes the party left him, not the other way around . . .

 

[don flowers]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

Q.C. Then my response would be... if you know all, maybe not all, but most Political discussions turn quickly from discussions to often name calling why do you ask such a leading question. It will be a Dem. vs Rep. because no one particular person was in discussion. Just enough rope to get an argument started. You might have suggested a few Dem's for open discussion such as Hilary, or Kennedy. Heck, that would have started an argument also. In retrospect I don't think a political discussion can be done without tempers flaring because of the opposed political feelings on this board. Maybe we need a seperate place for a political site? This is really not an attack on you, promise, I just don't think we can have a political discussion without tempers flaring. Don

 

[QC]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

Don,<br /><br />You may be right. I think I can have a discussion as I do with friends etc. Yes, things get heated, but so does a debate about the best recipe for apple pie. So what?<br /><br />I am truly ineterested in whether or not I have missed something. I know that I don't understand everything and I will freely admit that I learned all I know from others. Maybe those others are truly full of carp . . .<br /><br />BTW, I don't see the question as leading. I see it as a title of a thread. Heck, maybe I'm not a conservative. Just a liberal who thinks acting like a conservative is cool . . .

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

Don, name calling and insults dont happen here nearly as much as any other forum.<br /><br />Quietcat, I boil it down to even less than Dennis Prager.<br /><br />You are a liberal if you think the government can run your life better than you can.<br /><br />Ken

 

[QC]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

Originally posted by KenImpZoom:<br /> You are a liberal if you think the government can run your life better than you can.<br />

Good barometer, but I think it is important to be honest about the labels we apply to ourselves and others. I believe that many asscoiate the word conservative with mean and selfish and that the word liberal is associated with nice and compassionate, so it is difficult for some to "admit" to holding conservative views although they may hold them to be true. The list from the link may help put some of those things into focus.

 

[PW2]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

The problem with labels is anyone can define them any way they want, and thus they completely lose any meaning whatsoever. And why use and discuss something that has no meaning?

 

[mrbscott19]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

I like the list, but it is obvious that those are well-crafted questions designed to make you feel bad for answering yes. I could do the exact same thing using conservative values and the results would probably be the same, or darn close. I mean, come on, question 17 is so loaded it's pathetic. I think every abortion, excluding pregnancy from rape(there are a few more exceptions), is immoral, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to do it. Maybe here-and-now issues are more important than the "big picture" to many people. The difference is that we "liberals" don't try to push our beliefs on everyone else. We may not like it, but we put up with it. Yeah it's immoral to have an abortion, but I'll pay for it in the afterlife, if there is one. Who are you to pass judgement or to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to do? Isn't that what freedom is all about? If I want to abort my own fetus, fine, but it ain't nobody's business but my own and Gods.(if he exists) I also think filleting a fish while it is still alive is immoral, but I'm sure many people here do it and think otherwise. Who am I to criticize? I'm not! get the point? Try letting the people actually living the life make the decisions on whats best for them. The world would be a much better place.<br /><br />Another thing that bothers me about the page is he uses only the word liberal, not democrat, but many of those questions have absolutely nothing to do with being liberal. Most people don't even really think of what the word liberal actually means when they hear it. I am a liberal. I feel that I should have the liberty to do whatever the hell I please so long as it doesn't affect anyone else. Being liberal is about believing in liberty and practicing it, nothing more. Live and let live. My morals and my family values are none of your business, and never will be, so stay out! If I want advise, I'll ask.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

I think of liberal and conservative as relative terms. Some republicans are more liberal than others. Some democrats are more conservative than others.<br /><br />I am a republican but I don't usually like to say so because I don't want to be labelled a right-winger. Thought of myself as pretty close to center.<br /><br />I could agree with only one on the Prager questionaire, and 2 or 3 that I'm ambivalent about.<br /><br />But I don't think that questionaire is completely unbiased.<br /><br />#12 "The present high tax rates are good." By inserting his own value judgement ("high") into the question, he leads you to the answer he wants to hear.<br /><br />#11 Is really two issues: public places and churches; you could be for one and against the other.<br /><br />#13 "...American values are bad." I don't see how that can be taken seriously.

 

[QC]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> The problem with labels is anyone can define them any way they want, and thus they completely lose any meaning whatsoever.

I believe that words have meaning, but it is OK, forget the label and discuss the postitions.

 

[QC]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

Mrb, use whatever label you want, he mentions the "liberal wing of the Democratic Party". If you used Democrat then it becomes a stupid question. Are you a Democrat? Yes. No. It is the positions that are important not the label . . . I don't think that #17 is loaded. It is very simple, there are many groups that believe that any distinction between any abortion is wrong. They may say that only to support their ultimate position, but it is said and held just the same. Not sure why stating that is loaded . . . BTW, I support the "right" to abortion, but there are definitely varying degrees of that support depending on the circumstances. Prager is pro-choice too . . .<br /><br />Also, I think you are a libertarian <br /><br />jtex, I agree, but he asks for comments to improve the list . . .

 

[DJ]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

I always found standing in the "middle of the road" as quite hazardous.<br /><br />A good way to get oneself squashed/dead/etc.<br /><br />I also find "middle of the roaders" looking for nothing but personal convenience. Beliefs, be damned.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

Troll? Maybe you don't intend it as such, but the questionaire you linked is a good example of an attempt to spin the term "liberal" as a negative one. <br /><br />That is, it appears designed to define the term "Liberal" as an extreme leftist. It appears designed to eliminate the recognition that there are many people who might define thenselves as 'liberal' who are much more moderate than the left wing extremists the 'spinmaster' is attempting to link the term with.<br /><br />As a statistician, I can tell you that this questionaire is designed to elicit a particular result, not as a fair and unbiased inquiry into peoples positions. Look at the way the questions are worded: many either 'beg a desired result' or are of the type 'have you stopped beating your wife?'. Many questions force the reader to supply 'black & white' answers to 'grey' issues.<br /><br />For example:<br /><br />3. Murderers should never be put to death. <br /> <br />That will generate a much different response than a question such as: <br /><br />3. Even though there are recent cases where DNA evidence has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that innocent people have been convicted and sentenced to death, there are no changes or adjustments that should be made to our current legal system as it pertains to capital punishment.<br /><br />OR <br /><br />14. The Israelis and Palestinians are morally equivalent. <br /><br />vs.<br /><br />14. Actions of both the Israelis and Palestinians have contributed to the current mess in that region and it will require the cooperation and work of both parties in order to stabilise the region and bring about a lasting peace. <br /><br />OR <br /><br />17. No abortions can be labeled immoral.<br /><br />vs.<br /><br />17. There are NO situations under which a woman should be allowed to have an abortion.<br /><br />I think you get the drift as to how the phrasing of the questions can influence the response. <br /><br />If one took the time one could easily design an "Are You a Conservative?" questionaire, based on extreme right wing positions, that would "show" that many moderate conservatives really don't agree with alot of 'traditional conservative positions' (see questions 3 and 17 above as perfect examples).

 

[QC]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

DJ,<br /><br />I am nothing close to a middle of the roader. Just used to call myself that, tongue firmly planted in cheek. I now belive that neutrality is weakness!! Maturity comes with taking positions on things you believe. Right and wrong exist. It is the blurring of this line that has me concerned about postitions often supported by what some call liberals. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

 

[DJ]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

QC,<br /><br />No sweat. I kind of got your point. I just threw some "bait" out. <br /><br />My opinions on "middle roaders" is just that, my opinion.<br /><br />Be well.

 

[QC]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

Originally posted by LakeLivin:<br /> Troll?

You reacted with good discussion . . .<br /><br />

Originally posted by LakeLivin:<br /> 3. Murderers should never be put to death. <br />

It says murderers. Not someone wrongly convicted. Think in the literal not the legal . . . <br /><br />

Originally posted by LakeLivin:<br /> 3. Even though there are recent cases where DNA evidence has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that innocent people have been convicted and sentenced to death, there are no changes or adjustments that should be made to our current legal system as it pertains to capital punishment.

How is that NOT leading? You clearly lay out that people could be put to death that are innocent . . . Help? The definition is Murderer, again as in someone who actually did murder someone. A discussion about mistakes made applying the death penalty is different.<br /><br />

Originally posted by LakeLivin:<br /> 14. The Israelis and Palestinians are morally equivalent. <br />

I see nothing misleading in this one. Your example is neutral. How do you take a position on that?<br /><br />

Originally posted by LakeLivin:<br /> 17. No abortions can be labeled immoral.<br />

Same. Pretty clear.<br /><br />I agree that the list needs some work. I noted above and so does he that it is a work in progress and he asks for comments. I still believe that many liberal positions are not supported by some significant numbers of people who refer to themselves as liberal. That is the point . . . nothing more.

 

[Link]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

Originally posted by PW2:<br /> The problem with labels is anyone can define them any way they want, and thus they completely lose any meaning whatsoever. And why use and discuss something that has no meaning?

Agree

 

[oddjob]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

Originally posted by DJ:<br /> I always found standing in the "middle of the road" as quite hazardous.<br /><br />A good way to get oneself squashed/dead/etc.<br /><br />I also find "middle of the roaders" looking for nothing but personal convenience. Beliefs, be damned.

THe last sentence is another description of a liberal...a middle roader is a liberal whos afraid to admit it or is a liberal waiting to happen. Especially after the media whips them into a frenzy...<br /><br />People who never or seldom vote are middle roaders, which makes them eventual liberals...simple math

 

[jtexas]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

lakelivin, while I agree that a number of the questions encourage a "no" answer, I found your example for #3 more leading than the original, almost daring me to agree despite your well-presented argument against. It's your area of expertise, that's just my perspective.<br /><br />#14 I think a person could agree with your example but disagree with the original, so I'm not sure you've restated the same principle. But then, this one strikes me as being redundant with #23.<br /><br />#17 I think you nailed it...seems like the original dares you to take a immoral stance.<br /><br />Interesting we each picked three examples of "leading" questions, and got 3 different ones.<br /><br />I read some of the guys other articles...he does have an agenda but doesn't hide it...I'm not convinced this is a ploy to make liberalism negative. But you'd have to be pretty far out on the left wingtip to answer "yes" to most of 'em.<br /><br />Just my observations.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

Originally posted by DJ:<br /> I also find "middle of the roaders" looking for nothing but personal convenience. Beliefs, be damned.

What do we mean by "middle of the roaders."<br /><br />Stuck between liberal and conservative on all issues?<br /><br />Strongly liberal on some issues and conservative on others?<br /><br />Myself, there are issues that overwhelm me with apathy, just can't make an argument either way. On others, I find myself overcome with ambivalence, I could vigorously defend both sides.<br /><br />That throws me right out into the middle of the road sometimes, even though it's not always convenient.<br /><br />To be honest with you, your description of "looking for nothing but personal convenience. Beliefs, be damned" sounds to me more like straight-ticket voters, loyal to the party because then they got somebody to tell them how to vote regardless of personal belief, instead of thinking for themselves.<br /><br />just my 2¢

 

[pjc]

Re: Are you really a liberal?

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