arauco ply

esimmons92

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Oct 15, 2012
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Re: arauco ply

Has any one heard of treated ply using penetrated oil? A guy at my church works at a local hardware store and they can get a lot of lumber that the big stores do not carry and he told me that he used plywood that was treated with "penetrated oil" when he was restoring his boat and said he didn't have any problems with fiberglass not adhering correctly. Apparently this is how wood was treated before they started using arsenic and now copper. Any input on if this would be a suitable wood to use for my transom/deck?
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

Has any one heard of treated ply using penetrated oil? A guy at my church works at a local hardware store and they can get a lot of lumber that the big stores do not carry and he told me that he used plywood that was treated with "penetrated oil" when he was restoring his boat and said he didn't have any problems with fiberglass not adhering correctly. Apparently this is how wood was treated before they started using arsenic and now copper. Any input on if this would be a suitable wood to use for my transom/deck?

Never heard of it, maybe you should go check it out and tell us some more about it after you've seen it and got more info on it.
 

esimmons92

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Re: arauco ply

Never heard of it, maybe you should go check it out and tell us some more about it after you've seen it and got more info on it.

I was hoping someone could shed some light on this. I have done as much research as I can with out buying a sheet and glassing it which budget definitely does not allow. Hence why I asked if anyone has heard of it or had any experience with it. Now if someone (jigngrub) wants to donate I will gladly buya sheet and glass it, I'll even throw in a video of how it works!
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

I was hoping someone could shed some light on this. I have done as much research as I can with out buying a sheet and glassing it which budget definitely does not allow. Hence why I asked if anyone has heard of it or had any experience with it. Now if someone (jigngrub) wants to donate I will gladly buya sheet and glass it, I'll even throw in a video of how it works!

I was hoping you could venture out to this hardware store and take a picture of this mysterious plywood, especially the product/grade stamp, maybe do an investigative video interview with the salesman for a product description and post the pics and vid here for our information and to enlighten us.

To be honest, a plywood treated with penetrating oil would be about the worst material to bond fiberglass to. The plywood has to be dry and free of any oils for the resin to penetrate the fibers and bond the resin and glass to the wood, any oils would be a barrier that would block this bond and the resined glass would peel off in short order.

Either you misunderstood the salesman, or he doesn't know what he's talking about.
 

Woodonglass

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Re: arauco ply

Back in the 40's and 50's they used to apply several coats of Boiled linsieed oil to the "New" plywood product to aid in waterproofing it. Usually on roofing material. BLO will eventually dry well enough to allow resin to adhere to it, but prolly would be best to use epoxy if you end up getting wood treated this way. Not sure if that's what your lumber guy was talking about but could be.:confused:
 

Yacht Dr.

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Re: arauco ply

Sorry JNG but that's not correct. The wood is NOT the back bone and strength of the stringer. You can search the forum and find lots of info to back that up. The glass IS the strength. The wood is only the form. The Glass carries all of the load. If you have enough layers of glass (Engineered Stringers) the "Form" can disappear with NO negative effects to the Structural Integrity of the boat. That's why the new boats have NO WOOD in them. They've learned that the glass/composites are what's important. YD is correct that you can use Common White pine and if it's prepped and glassed properly it will do the job. Again, It's the glassin' thats most important. Your point on the Poly not adhering well to the resin on MDO/HDO is a good one, however, when I spoke to one of the leading mfg's of MDO they said that if it was sanded with 60 grit and washed with acetone the bond would be adequate. Epoxy IS, as you pointed out, a much better choice when using it especially for transoms and stringers.

Like I always say if you seal it correctly and do enough lams, maintain it properly you could use Balsa wood.

The wood does play a major part of the resto .. there is no replacement for solid core stringers.

Glass does not carry All of the form load .. not on the wood stringer boats with glass.

I never said Anything about using common white pine for replacement parts for stringers or bulks or transoms.. Simply NOT true here.. I Never suggested such materials.

If this is true, why is it important for people that have rotten stringers in their boat to replace them? Why do we tell them to replace their rotten stringers? If the wood is just a form for the glass it wouldn't matter if the wood rotted out a week after the glass had cured out.
... and why is it recommended that people use plywood for their stringers because it's stronger than dimensional lumber?

I will agree that's it's not all about the lumber, and I'll say it's not all about the glass either. It's about a system. A system that is strong, economical, and can be installed in a timely manner.

I know there's the hollow engineered stringers made completely of resin and glass, but these are expensive and time consuming to install... and as the name implies, should be designed by an engineer.

I'd say it's a 50/50 split for the wood and glass, and choosing the proper lumber is just as important as choosing the proper glass mat/cloth and resin.

Ply is stronger then dimensional lumber .. well at some point ..

Could you glass over your little stringer systems with the ply rotting out .. You could theoretically replace a glass over ply system .. but you have to put such mods into your IBO system ..

Your statement was...the wood is the backbone and the strength of the stringer. This is simply not true. This should help everyone understand a bit better...


Stringers

What is a stringer and how does it work? The answer to the first part of the question is easy and widely understood. The answer to the second half of the question is much more likely to be misunderstood.
What is a stringer?
A stringer is a longitudinal support along the inside of the hull. Its role in boat construction is to stiffen the hull. Sounds simple right?
How does it work?
This is where things get a little trickier.
The most important characteristic of a fiberglass stringer is its profile, its shape in other words. Let me illustrate this point with an analogy. Imagine you have a flat piece of steel. The steel is 1/4? thick, only an inch wide, and it's 15' long. If you pick up the steel from one end and held it level to the ground, the other end would sag considerably.
Now imagine you have a cardboard tube. The tube is also 1/4? thick and 15' long. If you pick up the tube from one end and hold it level to the ground, you can imagine that the tube would hardly flex at all. This isn't because cardboard is stronger than steel. The cardboard is more rigid because the cardboard is a tube and the steel is flat. This is basically how fiberglass stringers work. It's their shape that provides the support, the core is simply there as a form.
In present day manufacturing of boats, builders are hyper conscious of Strength-to-Weight ratios. Stringers, deck beams and other supportive elements are formed in one continuous mold and glassed into a bare hull as a ?pan? with no core material whatsoever.
In Fiberglassic repair, we're dealing with the technology and knowledge that existed fifty or sixty years ago. In the early days of fiberglass construction (mid 50s and earlier), the stringer core material was given the structural duty, with a layer or two of fiberglass overlay simply to hold it in place. By the late 50s this mistake was largely rectified by reversing those roles. The structural element of the stringers became fiberglass while the core became more of a shape.
One thing to note about this role reversal though, is that boat builders, as recently as a few years ago, did not understand this principle and relied on the core for at least some of the structural duty of the stringer. For this reason, any repair to or removal of a stringer core should be followed by adding additional layers of mat and roving.
Side note: The previous sentence ended with the words ?mat and roving,? because additional thickness of the stringer is the goal. Adding layers of mat and cloth wouldn't build up thickness as quick.
Another side note: When building up stringer thicknesses, I use a crude formula. I have no idea if these numbers are ideal, too strong, or too weak, but I would be interested in hearing from a naval architect on the subject.
I build up the stringer wall thickness according to the length of the boat. Typically, I use ?? of thickness for every 10' of stringer length. There are variables to this formula, such as the number of stringers and their profile (some profiles are stronger than others). Box beam type stringers are stronger than half-circle profiles because it more closely resembles true I-beam construction.
The forms were made out of whatever was handy. In the Northwest, you'll find many forms made out of Spruce or Fir, In the Northeast, you'll find many made out of Pine. You'll find many boats all over that used plywood as a form. Usually the stringers will be in box form (a rectangular profile) because that was the simplest construction method. They are then glassed to the hull and ?Presto!? you have a stringer! On my Banshee, the stringers were preformed semicircles with no core, which were later glassed in.
When you understand that it's the shape of the stringer and not whats inside of it that provides the rigidity, it makes problems much easier to solve. The truth is, just about anything that will not melt from the styrene in fiberglass resins will work as a form.
Cardboard is actually a fantastic core material. It is light weight, readily available everywhere and so cheap it can often be found for free. The downside it that it is already rigid enough that you may have a hard time getting it to conform to the shape of the hull.
Urethane foam is probably the best substrate you can use. It can be easily shaped to any complex curve. It is perfectly compatible with resin and it is highly rot resistant. Unfortunately, it is cost prohibitive to most hobbyists and not always readily available.
Plywood will also work just fine as a core material. It is much more stable than solid wood. It's also available everywhere. It's cheap. And, though it's harder to shape than urethane, it's not beyond the ability of most DIYs. The problem with plywood is that it's susceptible to rot.
Although the profile of the stringer is by far the most important factor in building a fiberglass stringer, rot is still a concern that must be addressed. Rotted wood will add a considerable amount of weight via moisture absorption. Additionally, the rapid expansion of wood from moisture absorption can cause the stringer to delaminate from the hull. For this reason, whether using plywood as a core material or not, great care should be taken to ensure that moisture stays on the outside of the stringer.
The only medium for stringer construction I absolutely do not recommend is solid wood. Because plywood is made from alternating grain directions of lumber, it is orders of magnitude more stable than solid wood. Solid wood will expand and contract with humidity and temperature variations and can ultimately fracture the fiberglass lamination to the hull. Do Not Use Solid Wood As A Core Material!

Not quite right there Woody ..close but not right on...

The wood sure looks like the back bone and core to me.

If I was going to choose 1 of the 2 materials in that pic for structural support... it wouldn't be those thin little layers of fiberglass.

That lam schedule is .. well .. incomplete ..

Has any one heard of treated ply using penetrated oil? A guy at my church works at a local hardware store and they can get a lot of lumber that the big stores do not carry and he told me that he used plywood that was treated with "penetrated oil" when he was restoring his boat and said he didn't have any problems with fiberglass not adhering correctly. Apparently this is how wood was treated before they started using arsenic and now copper. Any input on if this would be a suitable wood to use for my transom/deck?

I have suggested that proper prep is Key with any wood/composite materials ..

Do follow that suggestion or not .. its your boat ..

YD.
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

.



That lam schedule is .. well .. incomplete ...

The lam schedule comes from Woodonglasses Flamingo retoration thread and is posted in his signature on the How To's of stringer deck, and transom replacement... has been used by many members with great results.
 

jasoutside

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Re: arauco ply

So, have we covered the op's initial question here fellas?
 

Patfromny

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Re: arauco ply

Polyester resin and fiberglass cloth have no place or business in an aluminum boat!!!:mad:

Just a newbie question...Why wouldn't you use poly and fiberglass in an aluminum boat? Wouldn't wrapping a transom make it stronger? Is there a reason epoxy is better than poly in an aluminum boat? Just trying to learn a bit as I advance on my project.
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

Just a newbie question...Why wouldn't you use poly and fiberglass in an aluminum boat? Wouldn't wrapping a transom make it stronger? Is there a reason epoxy is better than poly in an aluminum boat? Just trying to learn a bit as I advance on my project.

The strength comes from the wood when you have a boat with a wood reinforced transom, whether it's an aluminum or fiberglass boat.

Any strength gained by wrapping a wood transom with 3 or 4 plies of fiberglass will be minimal in comparison to the typical 1-1/2" thick wood transom core and is mainly used as a waterproofer.

Glassing in a transom can cause installation problems on an aluminum boat if transom thickness isn't paid attention to, you can make your transom too thick and it may not fit in the "Z" channel, or if your transom is double walled aluminum it may not fit well in the "pocket", and your transom cap may not fit.

The thickness of an epoxy sealer is minimal even when 4 coats are applied.

You can reduce your wood core size and build up with glass and resin if that's what you want to use or have a bunch of leftovers from another project.

... and if you want to make a super duper heavy duty transom and reduce you wood core size down to 1" and then build up 1/4" all the way around with glass laminates you can do that too, but it'll cost a lot more, take longer to build, and isn't necessary.
 

Patfromny

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Re: arauco ply

That makes sense and thanks jigngrub but why epoxy over poly for aluminum? Is there some chemical reaction like pressure treated to aluminum or is there another reason?
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

That makes sense and thanks jigngrub but why epoxy over poly for aluminum? Is there some chemical reaction like pressure treated to aluminum or is there another reason?

Epoxy resin is strong by itself, polyester resin is not and needs the glass cloth/mat to reinforce it.
 
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