arauco ply

Woodonglass

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Re: arauco ply

Arauco's website, as I posted before, states that "All AraucoPly sanded panels are laid up on a composed core using exterior PF resin and 100% plantation grown radiata pine."

PF resin is 100% waterproof. It is Pine and NOT Fir but the Marine grade plywood will rot if it gets wet. Delamination should not occur with either. If I was doing this for a living I'd always use Marine Grade. For the DIY'er Trying to save some bucks and not having to please anyone but himself, I think the Arauco plywood fits the bill. With proper care and maintenance it will last 50 yrs so that should be good enough. JMO.;)
 

jasoutside

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Re: arauco ply

For the DIY'er Trying to save some bucks and not having to please anyone but himself, I think the Arauco plywood fits the bill. With proper care and maintenance it will last 50 yrs so that should be good enough. JMO.;)

X2!:joyous:

I'm a fan...
P1060956.jpg
 

boat_beginner

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Re: arauco ply

You could use MDO plywood. Prolly have to go to a quality lumber yard to get it. Usually around $60 bucks a sheet but really good stuff. Saves on Resin and glass too! Don't have to pre-coat it before applying the CSM

Is MDO suitable for stringers and decks? The reason I ask is because I have considered us ring either MDO or HDO for replacing transom/stringers/deck, and someone in the past said that MDO was not suitable for the mentioned repairs. I do not recall their exact reasoning off hand, but thought is was something about the MDO/HDO not being suitable for handling the loads placed on the wood if being used for stringers or decks. Also, I think there was some question as to how well the paper like finish and factory resin on the MDO/HDO would hold up when laminated together and placed under a load, mostly in a transom scenario.
I'm not trying to question you knowledge by any means, because I know very little of these topics. Just trying to clarify
In addition, as I stated, I was considering using MDO/HDO, I had a slight concern/curiosity of the weight difference between marine grade, MDO/HDO, and arauco plywoods. Is it enough to be worried about?
 

Woodonglass

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Re: arauco ply

For Decks, absolutely NO problem. For Stringers and Transoms...Some care need to be taken. The resin coating when face glued should prolly be done with epoxy. the edges ALWAYS need to be Sealed again with epoxy. If you use the Coated one Side only version you could glue up the un-coated sides with normal processes. HDO is used in the boat building industry a lot. This should give you more details... There ARE different Grades of MDO/HDO and the lower grades will have voids in the plys

http://www.plumcreek.com/Portals/0/downloads/productInfo/MDO.pdf
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

Is MDO suitable for stringers and decks? The reason I ask is because I have considered us ring either MDO or HDO for replacing transom/stringers/deck, and someone in the past said that MDO was not suitable for the mentioned repairs. I do not recall their exact reasoning off hand, but thought is was something about the MDO/HDO not being suitable for handling the loads placed on the wood if being used for stringers or decks. Also, I think there was some question as to how well the paper like finish and factory resin on the MDO/HDO would hold up when laminated together and placed under a load, mostly in a transom scenario.
I'm not trying to question you knowledge by any means, because I know very little of these topics. Just trying to clarify
In addition, as I stated, I was considering using MDO/HDO, I had a slight concern/curiosity of the weight difference between marine grade, MDO/HDO, and arauco plywoods. Is it enough to be worried about?

MDO is stronger and more water resistant than regular plywood, and more water resistant than marine plywood when you buy it from the lumber yard.

We use MDO and HDO plywoods on our construction sites to form concrete walls with because you get more uses with it and it lasts twice as long as regular plywood. Concrete form work has to be very strong to hold the shape of the wet concrete concrete until it sets up, there's many thousands of PSI and the bottom of a 2' thick by 16' tall concrete wall.

MDO is a very good material for marine applications.

Here's some more info on MDO:
http://www.ehow.com/about_6466437_mdo-plywood_.html
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

I appreciate the information gentlemen, and the links.

Wait Wait Wait!... don't use it yet, there's something I just found out and you need to know first!

The phenolic coating on MDO is an epoxy, and since polyester resin doesn't bond to epoxy... you'll need to use epoxy resin to do your glass layups with and this will add substantial cost to your build if you were planning on use the poly resin, about double the cost for resin... and you'll need to use epoxy compatible glass cloth too.
 

boat_beginner

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Re: arauco ply

Thanks for pointing that out jigngrub. I have not started the build yet, still a few months away from doing so, I have to finish remodeling my house before I can start on my boat. (Wife said so) I am trying to gather the materials and decide on the methods of completing the build, and the final layout of the boat before I actually do start rebuilding it. My plan is to have all the materials on hand and hopefully won't have to order anything after I start the build.
And now knowing the MDO has an epoxy coating on it is certainly a deciding factor it using it or not.
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

Thanks for pointing that out jigngrub. I have not started the build yet, still a few months away from doing so, I have to finish remodeling my house before I can start on my boat. (Wife said so) I am trying to gather the materials and decide on the methods of completing the build, and the final layout of the boat before I actually do start rebuilding it. My plan is to have all the materials on hand and hopefully won't have to order anything after I start the build.
And now knowing the MDO has an epoxy coating on it is certainly a deciding factor it ushering it or not.

Well I just put 2 and 2 together and realized you have an aluminum boat (a SC Jet Star I believe) and MDO is an excellent choice for a tinny resto.

Polyester resin and fiberglass cloth have no place or business in an aluminum boat!!!:mad:
 

boat_beginner

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Re: arauco ply

I believe you have me mistaken for another member. I have a 1967 Orlando Clipper, 18' fiberglass boat. However, since the MDO has epoxy on it, I'm not going to use it, because I plan on using poly resin on the build.
The OP may be the one you are mentioning with the Starcraft.
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

I believe you have me mistaken for another member. I have a 1967 Orlando Clipper, 18' fiberglass boat. However, since the MDO has epoxy on it, I'm not going to use it, because I plan on using poly resin on the build.
The OP may be the one you are mentioning with the Starcraft.

Sorry about that, I mistook you for boatbeginner1:
http://forums.iboats.com/member.php?u=352723
 

Yacht Dr.

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Re: arauco ply

You guy are over thinking this project ...

From footer forms to stringers ..

Good god man .. get some good straight plywood ! resin coat the crap outa it till it cant drink no more. .. then prep it with some 24-36 grit and lam onto that wood.

Its the freaking LAMS that you have to worry about.

If your Fiberglass does not stick to your wood ( MDO .. CDX .. ACX .. BBA .. AAC .. aruco ) then it does not matter what you use .. its delaminated from the get go.

Prep is KEY .. Learn that .. Love That. No Prep ( grinding and resin coating and so-on ) then your boned from the start guys.

You can prep basically any kind of ply. .. you just have to know when your prep is good enough for the next LAYER.

Cant do this in Crayon ..but I hope you guys understand when a chunk of wood is prepped enough to the corisponding correctly prepped glass .. then you have a GO. .. Until BOTH surfaces have these correct profiles you will loose in your construction.

Your talking too much about wood an not enough about process ..

YD.
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

Yeah heck, silly us... wood is just the back bone and strength of the stringer, what were we thinking. So what if the plies delaminate because the wrong grade of lumber was used, so what if the job only lasts a few short years... it's not our boat eh?!

So what if someone uses lumber with a phenolic coating on it and then tries to bond polyester resin to it... it's not our boat!

Choosing the proper material for the heart of the stringer and transom may not be be important to some people, but those that want to do a good job should consider what would be best for a long lasting build.
 

Woodonglass

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Re: arauco ply

Sorry JNG but that's not correct. The wood is NOT the back bone and strength of the stringer. You can search the forum and find lots of info to back that up. The glass IS the strength. The wood is only the form. The Glass carries all of the load. If you have enough layers of glass (Engineered Stringers) the "Form" can disappear with NO negative effects to the Structural Integrity of the boat. That's why the new boats have NO WOOD in them. They've learned that the glass/composites are what's important. YD is correct that you can use Common White pine and if it's prepped and glassed properly it will do the job. Again, It's the glassin' thats most important. Your point on the Poly not adhering well to the resin on MDO/HDO is a good one, however, when I spoke to one of the leading mfg's of MDO they said that if it was sanded with 60 grit and washed with acetone the bond would be adequate. Epoxy IS, as you pointed out, a much better choice when using it especially for transoms and stringers.

Like I always say if you seal it correctly and do enough lams, maintain it properly you could use Balsa wood.
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

Sorry JNG but that's not correct. The wood is NOT the back bone and strength of the stringer. You can search the forum and find lots of info to back that up. The glass IS the strength.The wood is only the form

If this is true, why is it important for people that have rotten stringers in their boat to replace them? Why do we tell them to replace their rotten stringers? If the wood is just a form for the glass it wouldn't matter if the wood rotted out a week after the glass had cured out.
... and why is it recommended that people use plywood for their stringers because it's stronger than dimensional lumber?

I will agree that's it's not all about the lumber, and I'll say it's not all about the glass either. It's about a system. A system that is strong, economical, and can be installed in a timely manner.

I know there's the hollow engineered stringers made completely of resin and glass, but these are expensive and time consuming to install... and as the name implies, should be designed by an engineer.

I'd say it's a 50/50 split for the wood and glass, and choosing the proper lumber is just as important as choosing the proper glass mat/cloth and resin.
 

Woodonglass

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Re: arauco ply

Your statement was...the wood is the backbone and the strength of the stringer. This is simply not true. This should help everyone understand a bit better...


Stringers

What is a stringer and how does it work? The answer to the first part of the question is easy and widely understood. The answer to the second half of the question is much more likely to be misunderstood.
What is a stringer?
A stringer is a longitudinal support along the inside of the hull. Its role in boat construction is to stiffen the hull. Sounds simple right?
How does it work?
This is where things get a little trickier.
The most important characteristic of a fiberglass stringer is its profile, its shape in other words. Let me illustrate this point with an analogy. Imagine you have a flat piece of steel. The steel is 1/4” thick, only an inch wide, and it's 15' long. If you pick up the steel from one end and held it level to the ground, the other end would sag considerably.
Now imagine you have a cardboard tube. The tube is also 1/4” thick and 15' long. If you pick up the tube from one end and hold it level to the ground, you can imagine that the tube would hardly flex at all. This isn't because cardboard is stronger than steel. The cardboard is more rigid because the cardboard is a tube and the steel is flat. This is basically how fiberglass stringers work. It's their shape that provides the support, the core is simply there as a form.
In present day manufacturing of boats, builders are hyper conscious of Strength-to-Weight ratios. Stringers, deck beams and other supportive elements are formed in one continuous mold and glassed into a bare hull as a “pan” with no core material whatsoever.
In Fiberglassic repair, we're dealing with the technology and knowledge that existed fifty or sixty years ago. In the early days of fiberglass construction (mid 50s and earlier), the stringer core material was given the structural duty, with a layer or two of fiberglass overlay simply to hold it in place. By the late 50s this mistake was largely rectified by reversing those roles. The structural element of the stringers became fiberglass while the core became more of a shape.
One thing to note about this role reversal though, is that boat builders, as recently as a few years ago, did not understand this principle and relied on the core for at least some of the structural duty of the stringer. For this reason, any repair to or removal of a stringer core should be followed by adding additional layers of mat and roving.
Side note: The previous sentence ended with the words “mat and roving,” because additional thickness of the stringer is the goal. Adding layers of mat and cloth wouldn't build up thickness as quick.
Another side note: When building up stringer thicknesses, I use a crude formula. I have no idea if these numbers are ideal, too strong, or too weak, but I would be interested in hearing from a naval architect on the subject.
I build up the stringer wall thickness according to the length of the boat. Typically, I use ?” of thickness for every 10' of stringer length. There are variables to this formula, such as the number of stringers and their profile (some profiles are stronger than others). Box beam type stringers are stronger than half-circle profiles because it more closely resembles true I-beam construction.
The forms were made out of whatever was handy. In the Northwest, you'll find many forms made out of Spruce or Fir, In the Northeast, you'll find many made out of Pine. You'll find many boats all over that used plywood as a form. Usually the stringers will be in box form (a rectangular profile) because that was the simplest construction method. They are then glassed to the hull and “Presto!” you have a stringer! On my Banshee, the stringers were preformed semicircles with no core, which were later glassed in.
When you understand that it's the shape of the stringer and not whats inside of it that provides the rigidity, it makes problems much easier to solve. The truth is, just about anything that will not melt from the styrene in fiberglass resins will work as a form.
Cardboard is actually a fantastic core material. It is light weight, readily available everywhere and so cheap it can often be found for free. The downside it that it is already rigid enough that you may have a hard time getting it to conform to the shape of the hull.
Urethane foam is probably the best substrate you can use. It can be easily shaped to any complex curve. It is perfectly compatible with resin and it is highly rot resistant. Unfortunately, it is cost prohibitive to most hobbyists and not always readily available.
Plywood will also work just fine as a core material. It is much more stable than solid wood. It's also available everywhere. It's cheap. And, though it's harder to shape than urethane, it's not beyond the ability of most DIYs. The problem with plywood is that it's susceptible to rot.
Although the profile of the stringer is by far the most important factor in building a fiberglass stringer, rot is still a concern that must be addressed. Rotted wood will add a considerable amount of weight via moisture absorption. Additionally, the rapid expansion of wood from moisture absorption can cause the stringer to delaminate from the hull. For this reason, whether using plywood as a core material or not, great care should be taken to ensure that moisture stays on the outside of the stringer.
The only medium for stringer construction I absolutely do not recommend is solid wood. Because plywood is made from alternating grain directions of lumber, it is orders of magnitude more stable than solid wood. Solid wood will expand and contract with humidity and temperature variations and can ultimately fracture the fiberglass lamination to the hull. Do Not Use Solid Wood As A Core Material!
 

jigngrub

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Re: arauco ply

Stringers_zps840bac88.jpg


The wood sure looks like the back bone and core to me.

If I was going to choose 1 of the 2 materials in that pic for structural support... it wouldn't be those thin little layers of fiberglass.
 
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