Anybody else listening to W?

[Skinnywater]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Darth, I believe the exact same statment about creating a democracy in Japan was made 60 years ago. And Germany and Italy. Guess they were wrong.

You're leaving one important equation out in that statement. Germany and Japan were soundly, completely and utterly defeated into submission first. <br />We completed the business of war thouroghly, before we did the business of nation building.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Most on the other side believe that this Administration is limiting our freedoms.

After this many posts and you've managed to glean one sentence to sum up the "other side".<br />Somewhere on page 1 you admitted to agreeing with much more than that.<br />

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Woodrat & Skinnywater: well said....Darth, we got ourselves into Viet Nam!.....I will always wonder about the stratigegic significance of keeping control of either penninsula with regards to the real spread of Communism....<br />We are 1-4 in those two arenas<br />& wasted alot of good men.......JK

 

[ob]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by Skinnywater:<br />

Darth, I believe the exact same statment about creating a democracy in Japan was made 60 years ago. And Germany and Italy. Guess they were wrong.

You're leaving one important equation out in that statement. Germany and Japan were soundly, completely and utterly defeated into submission first. <br />We completed the business of war thouroghly, before we did the business of nation building.

Good point ,but that kind of allout warfare aint politically correct no more.All this technology and we're still getting hit with rocks and bottles.And that's the way it needs to remain imo,or else..........

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

but that kind of allout warfare aint politically correct no more.All this technology and we're still getting hit with rocks and bottles.

Yeah, this more my point above all others in this thread (lost freedoms was only a side point). "W", Rumsfeld and others owe us more than a politically correct war that never succeeds. <br />Airliners as missles, suicide bombs against civilians, IED's and effective urban guerella warfare is a far cry from "rocks and bottles".<br />"Or else", is so effective that it could have this over pretty quick and again is an important ingredient to peace.

 

[ob]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by Skinnywater:<br />

but that kind of allout warfare aint politically correct no more.All this technology and we're still getting hit with rocks and bottles.

Yeah, this more my point above all others in this thread (lost freedoms was only a side point). "W", Rumsfeld and others owe us more than a politically correct war that never succeeds. <br />Airliners as missles, suicide bombs against civilians, IED's and effective urban guerella warfare is a far cry from "rocks and bottles".<br />"Or else", is so effective that it could have this over pretty quick and again is an important ingredient to peace.

I'm not so sure that the "or else" would work as effectively as it once did.We were the only ones packing it at that critical moment in history.The rocks and bottles was my attempt at a euphemism.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

there is no comparison between post war japan and germany to the present conflict.<br /> after WW1 the treaty of versille was so restrictive it plunged post WW1 germany into a deplorable depression leading to hitlers rise to power.<br /> the world learned some so after WWII we reconstructed both countries to their former industrial/educational levels and then some.<br /> there is and was no industrial level to lead most the middle east back to as they really have had no idustrial/educational background for several centuries.<br /> were it not for the post war discovery of vast petroleum fields that area would be like africa, 90% of america would probably not know it existed.<br /> ask anyone you meet to name 3 countries in africa and see what answers you get.<br /> germany and japan had centuries of industrial and educational backgrounds with large civil and private industies and infastructures.<br />the middle east has no such history and is struggling with the technology thrust upon them in the past 70 years.<br /> I mean comeon, since the end of WWI they have had a radical upheavel. I dont think they want nor understand a western democracy. even in the US the voting rights for all citizens above the age of majority have only had the right to vote for what 70 years or so ?<br /> it took us 400 years to get to where we are now, how can we expect them to do it in 70 when the west kept redrawing their borders and not respecting age old traditions and religions?

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Another dynamic that relates to this particular "political correct" war that has to be considered. <br />In the field of nation building and warfare concurrently. There are large private corporations that have a vested interest to rebuild infrastructure 10-20 times over again. It's in their financial interests to perpetuate a politically correct war so as to insure profits 10-20 years down the line.<br /><br /> It's extremly important that all of us give this fact careful consideration.

 

[dogsdad]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by Haut Medoc:<br /> Woodrat & Skinnywater: well said....Darth, we got ourselves into Viet Nam!.....I will always wonder about the stratigegic significance of keeping control of either penninsula with regards to the real spread of Communism....<br />We are 1-4 in those two arenas<br />& wasted alot of good men.......JK

So, you have a crystal ball and are sure of what the outcome of the Cold War would have been had we not done what we did?

 

[dogsdad]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by woodrat:<br /> DD sez: "Ooohhh? Who died and made you God, so that you know what I believe and where my beliefs come from??"<br /><br />well, gee DD. Back pre-election when I was in here arguing against another Bush administration, you were one of the ones, alongside 12 footer and others, who seemed to think you knew exactly who I was and what I believed in. You guys argued with me about that, insisting that I was a dyed in the wool limp wristed liberal Democrat, because that's all that I could be if I opposed the Bush policies.<br /><br />Doesn't feel so great, does it?

It's relatively easy to spot a marxist, a liberal, a conservative, or what have you---but not always a sure thing. To assert that you know how an individual arrived at his belief system is nothing less than arrogant.

 

[dogsdad]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by Haut Medoc:<br /> I've seen enough of your posts to know who you think speaks the Gospel......<br />Rush Limbaugh is a BIG, FAT, IDIOT!<br />GLUB,GLUB.....<br />We are gonna beat you with the democracy stick, whether you like it or not!<br />That is the trouble with the Rehubs.....<br />It's O.K. to be an individual as long as you believe & do what I do....<br />Do what I say & do & you are O.K....<br />Don't & you will be bombed into submission...<br />If it is feasible......<br />Edit ......JK

Sorry, JK. You just don't know what you're talking about here. <br /><br />Your hatred of Rush is revealing, and since you insist that I let him do my thinking for me, I think I can safely assume that by the association you have made up in your mind I am an equal recipient of your sentiment. Your tolerance, open-mindedness, and willingness to discuss the issues without rancor are inspiring.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Viet Nam is Communist....We achieved nada, zip, nothing at the cost of 50,000 U.S. servicemen & I forget how many wounded.....Not to mention a ton of cash.....<br />We have expended lots of men & a boatload of cash, yet 50 years later we still sit on the 38th parallel......<br />We didn't accomplish jack......<br />I don't need a crystal ball to see that...<br />I guess we saved ourselves from a waterbourne Commie invasion when they got to the end of their respective peninsula's, right?<br />Is that what all them thar "boat people" were about?.......JK

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Yep, I think Rush is a blowhard idiot.....If the shoe fits ......Wear it!.....JK

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

QC, you've done well....I usually prefer Ballyhoo, but "W" works just as well ....JK

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

my opinion of the late vietnam unpleasentness is it started out with lofty ideals and rapidly degenerated into a defense industry toy test, the US needed a test bed for their new toys and an excuse to build them and the russians did the same.<br /> about the same with our support of al queda and the freedom fighters during the russian/afghan war. we trained supplied and observed to see if the equipment and tactics actually worked. now we get to see it first hand.<br /> and while during the Iran/Iraq conflict the west supplied saddam with gas weapons and the weather data to use them effectivly and our objective was to observe these new weapons,their effectivness on the field and did they actually work as none had had much battlefield testing.<br /> kinda like 6th grader thad, encouraging and goading billy and bubby,1st graders into a fight. when billy goes crying with a bloody nose to the teacher bubby gets in trouble but thad skates away free with plausible denyability, is thad guilty or not ?

 

[woodrat]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"It's relatively easy to spot a marxist, a liberal, a conservative, or what have you---but not always a sure thing. To assert that you know how an individual arrived at his belief system is nothing less than arrogant."<br /><br />It might be relatively easy, but you were still wrong in your labelling of me anyway. And you and 12 also did assert on several occasions that you knew how I got to be a limp-wristed Democrat and where I got my "playbook" from. A little bit of the pot calling the kettle black, huh? Anyway, everyone including you and 12 seem to be a tad bit more respectful in your words these days, now that the heat of the election is over.

 

[QC]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by Skinnywater:<br />

Most on the other side believe that this Administration is limiting our freedoms.

After this many posts and you've managed to glean one sentence to sum up the "other side".<br />Somewhere on page 1 you admitted to agreeing with much more than that.<br />

I was moving quickly and noting an area where things are clear. When rereading it does sound like I only got one thing out of it. That was not my intention. Yes, you sir are more complex. I apologize if I offended you. I did use a qualifier with "most".<br /><br />Are you saying that you do trust this administration to protect your freedoms? Or that there is a whole lot more going on here? If it is the latter, I agree. Again, I was moving quickly and did not intended to sum up the entire discussion.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

I apologize if I offended you..............Are you saying that you do trust this administration to protect your freedoms? Or that there is a whole lot more going on here? If it is the latter, I agree....

No sir, not one ounce of offense taken.<br />In summary and then I'll only respond to direct questions and answers.<br />I agree with a lot of what W says, but I recognize since the carrier landing it's been all talk.<br />I recognize he was elected by a conservative base on a conservative platform that he has convoluted.<br />I believe "W" is more incompetent than dishonest, while his administration is the opposite. The list is huge to contribute to a failing grade (IMO)and Republicans and Conservatives will suffer at the polls for decades from it.<br /><br />From my point of view the only thing (since the carrier landing) that has substance and that I agree with W on is his last two Supreme Court confirmed nominees. And beleive me I don't take that triumphant issue lightly at all. It was well worth my vote for him. <br /><br />Thanks QC for a nice debate and to those that contributed in a civil fashion.

 

[dogsdad]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by Haut Medoc:<br /> Viet Nam is Communist....We achieved nada, zip, nothing at the cost of 50,000 U.S. servicemen & I forget how many wounded.....Not to mention a ton of cash.....<br />We have expended lots of men & a boatload of cash, yet 50 years later we still sit on the 38th parallel......<br />We didn't accomplish jack......<br />I don't need a crystal ball to see that...<br />I guess we saved ourselves from a waterbourne Commie invasion when they got to the end of their respective peninsula's, right?<br />Is that what all them thar "boat people" were about?.......JK

You are being disingenuous and you know it. Had we not opposed the communists at those times and places, there is no way to know how the energy and resources they expended would have been otherwise used.<br /><br />And I will add that we pulled out of Vietnam without getting the job completely done because of: 1. the hell-raising of the campus leftists and their media accomplices and 2. the week-kneed jellyfish who were filling their pants because a handful of NVA got into the embassy compound during the Tet offensive.

 

[dogsdad]

Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by woodrat:<br />Anyway, everyone including you and 12 seem to be a tad bit more respectful in your words these days, now that the heat of the election is over.

So, how do I redeem myself?