Anybody else listening to W?

heycods

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by SBN:<br /> And that is the reason these political threads never go anywhere.<br />The one's over there <<<< are trying to change the minds of the one's over there >>>> and it will never happen.<br />I'm done now.
YAPPER, TIS SO TRUE
 

dogsdad

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by Skinnywater:<br />
The establishment of democracy is the offensive, and it is happening. The establishment of democracy in Iraq is opposed by the radical Islamists because it spells the end of their stranglehold on the region and threatens to topple their regimes like dominoes. Success in Iraq may be our best chance of avoiding a shooting war with Iran.
If democracy was such a great weapon then we could pass all "in theater" arms over to the newly democratic government and go home next month. Instead, be rest assured we'll be there for at least 50 years babysitting democracy.<br />Nice theory though in static. Dynamically there is the issue of daily (unanswered)strikes against our forces. Dynamically we give (a few here, a few there)of our rights domestically for democracy there.<br /><br />Dynamically the idea of warfare and nation building at the same time, at the same place, is an oxymoron that simply makes my head hurt.....
I don't think that's correct. <br /><br />You don't just plunk down a democratic form of government overnight in a country that has been run by a brutal dictator for years---that is a static concept. <br /><br />What is going on in Iraq is a top-to-bottom effort for establishing their central government, and a bottom-to-top effort for establishing the local governments. They are supposed to meet in the middle, and hopefully soon. And that is a dynamic concept.<br /><br />All the attacks are simply aimed at thwarting that process, but the process has tremendous momentum and will succeed. The people of Iraq are getting a taste of freedom and self-determination, and they like it.
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

DD, yes you are....& you take Rush Limbaugh's 'teachings' as 'Gospel'.....JK
 

dogsdad

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by Haut Medoc:<br /> DD, yes you are....& you take Rush Limbaugh's 'teachings' as 'Gospel'.....JK
Ooohhh? Who died and made you God, so that you know what I believe and where my beliefs come from??
 

dogsdad

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by SBN:<br /> And that is the reason these political threads never go anywhere.<br />The one's over there <<<< are trying to change the minds of the one's over there >>>> and it will never happen.<br />I'm done now.
I think you're right Spinner.<br /><br />It's a total waste of time to post here and argue with people who know more about what I think than I do.<br /><br />Y'all can have it.
 

Skinnywater

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

And that is the reason these political threads never go anywhere.
I see a lot of subtle changes in what is written now and from a year ago by some of the most stubborn. There seems to be more agreement even if only in portions of an arguement.<br />That might qualify as substantial movement. ;)
 

Skinnywater

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

I don't think that's correct.
And that's very cool with me.<br />We'll compare notes and have a check on those dynamics again in a few months. ;)
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

I've seen enough of your posts to know who you think speaks the Gospel......<br />Rush Limbaugh is a BIG, FAT, IDIOT!<br />GLUB,GLUB.....<br />We are gonna beat you with the democracy stick, whether you like it or not!<br />That is the trouble with the Rehubs.....<br />It's O.K. to be an individual as long as you believe & do what I do....<br />Do what I say & do & you are O.K....<br />Don't & you will be bombed into submission...<br />If it is feasible......<br />Edit :) ......JK
 

Kalian

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by rodbolt:<br /> kailian<br /> yep<br /> please describe to me the original plan VS rumesfelds plan and please please tell me how good a job was done securing the borders of Iraq to prevent the predicted,then realized, intrusion of foriegn terroists? maybe just after that you can explain to me the link between saddam and the 9/11 terrorists.<br /> man 3 easy easy questions.<br /> ill sit back and pop a cool one.<br /> stage is all yours
Sorry, I missed that Rodbolt. OK, Original vs Rummy, dunno. But something tells me I know where you're going with that.<br />#2: I have to preface this with the disclaimer that, obviously I don't have access to info regarding the military strategy in iraq, nor do I know our militarys full capability regarding troop #'s, inteligence capabilities and equipment available, and I'm sure you don't either Rodbolt, which means that neither you nor I are really capable of expounding or criticizing much on the details of our militarys strategy in iraq. But, I find it quite a stretch to think we have the capability to effectively close Iraqs borders and still fight a war, while maintaining our current stations around the world, as well as keeping a suficient reserve at home. I think the whole "closing Iraqs borders " ideas is a pipe dream. However, (and I mean no offense, I'm simply looking for knowledge I don't currently have) please tell me what your proposal is, to effectively secure Iraqs border. How would you have gone about that? Do you think we had and now have the troop strength to do that? I don't see how that could have been done.<br /> Ok, #3: The connection between the 9/11 terrorists? Whats the point? they're all dead. Who cares? The question shouldn't be whats the connection between 9,11 and Iraq, it should be whats the connection between Al qieda and Iraq. And thats a lot more dificult to answer. There was a lot of conjecture as to collaboration between Osama and Sadam. Just because it was never proven doesn't mean it never existed. There is definitly a connection between al qieda terrorists and Iraq now isn't there? And whether there is or isn't a connection, Saddam was an apparant threat to the U.S. With or without a connection to Al qieda, we needed to get in there and take Saddam out. If history proves he truly was no threat, then maybe it will be a lesson to other rogue nations who think they can pull the kinda crap Saddam did. And, as others have pointed out, democracy in Iraq has the potential to work in our favour, although it's certainly not guarenteed to.<br /> An aside, Iraq is certainly a good place to set up a semi permanent base for the purpose of invading Iran or syria. Perhaps that has something to do with Bushs strategy.<br /> <br /> Someone else mentioned we are simply holding position while soldiers are getting killed. I don't think thats entirely acurate. They are out on missions when they are being attacked, or at roadblocks.<br /> Hey, this is a lot from me, I generaly don't post lengthy posts because I absolutely hate writing or typing. There is a lot more I want to say, but I'm gonna crawl back in my hole now for awhile until the next urge hits. ;)
 

bootle

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

To persue the avenue of democracy in the Islamic countries is like chasing after fools gold, one has to be naive to ever believe that democracy can simply be transplanted, lest one is an idiot.<br />What the radical islamists cannot acquire by the gun, they will surely achieve by the ballot, as we have seen to some degree in Lebanon and just recently in Palestine.<br />The only form of government that the ballot can and will ever bring into power in such insular societies can only be a theocracy.<br />At this point we should and must be fully aware, and with our eyes and ears wide open seriously ask ourselves, How many more Irans are we be prepared to live with?
 

POINTER94

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Darth, I believe the exact same statment about creating a democracy in Japan was made 60 years ago. And Germany and Italy. Guess they were wrong. <br /><br />Should we not attempt anything difficult? Nothing going on is any different than any other administration during wartime. Every liberals icon FDR stuck how many Japaneese Americans in concentration camps? And we name buildings and bridges after this guy? This isn't runaway power grabbing, it is status quo. <br /><br />I find it interesting how some people claim something to be national news, while others never heard of such stories. Failure of the press or presentation consistant with local ideology? I read, watch and listen to the news frequently. I HAVE NOT HEARD of said story. Not selective amnesia, I HAVE NOT HEARD of this story.<br /><br />When is trying to attibute someones thoughts to others a means of debate. And quoting a real deep thinker like Al Franken is quite humorous.<br /><br />Again for those in the cheap seats, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and W all have used wire taps without a courts permission. Lincoln had political adversaries thrown out of the country during the civil war. FDR did what? Nixon, well we all know his story, Kennedy, lets not even go there. Kennedy got people killed because he was interested in nation building but didn't have the stones. And of all of them that have the "right", W is the one with the legitimate claim to exercise such power. It is called War. We are at War. War provides unique powers. Again, we are at War. A most unusual war not faced by any other president. Why is it that we can execute someone with a drone, but can't listen to his phone calls? Does this not have a ring of inconsistancy? Is it not the presidents first and most important priority to protect the people of this country by all means at his disposal? We are at war, what laws are being broken? History is riddled with similar uses of powers that some don't understand or appreciate doesn't make using them wrong. <br /><br />Kalian is right, it is the exact same people complaining we are spending too much are those who were complaining our troops were inadequately outfitted. It is a direct line from their arguements to partisan politics. And who was the president for the years prior to the war? Bill Clinton? Why were we inadequately outfitted?<br /><br />And this concept of war and nation building is what we have done in almost every war we have been involved with. Including our civil war and the cold war (a shotless war). Why this is a mystery to anyone shows a distinct failure of our public schools. To kill the snake you have to cut off the head. If you don't like what is going on, then vote them out and hire a lawyer, it is the american way. The courts continue to have jurisdiction over all. Funny how they have attempted to usurp authority over the legislature by legislating from the bench. But little or no voices from the left have risen up to oppose this equally dangerous abuse of our system. In fact it is worse in that it affect masses or all of our people. And who exactly was waved through to the supreme court? Sam Alito's crying wife might take exception to this comment. What exactly makes Roberts or Alito unqualified to sit on the bench? Procedure was followed. Don't like them, elect someone to put forth another Ginsburg clone. This requires winning elections. Head counsel for the ACLU got waived through consistant with the belief that the congress is to advise and consent, not anally cruitinize for the TV cameras, and approve for political purposes.<br /><br />And anyone who thinks we can turn our backs on the rising tide of radical muslims are living in the PEACE IN OUR TIME mentality of denial.
 

PW2

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

This is the most balaced discussion on this board in a long time.<br /><br />The goal is not specifically to get someone else to "change their mind" --Rather it is to get people to think a little.<br /><br />"Mission Accomplished"
 

QC

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

I agree with PW2, which will contradict the next line. When you seek agreement you are in trouble, just think about the same with your wife.<br /><br />What I usually try and remind myself is that we should seek clarity not agreement.<br /><br />The clarity that I have got out of this is that most that support W believe that this Administration is protecting our freedoms. Most on the other side believe that this Administration is limiting our freedoms.<br /><br />There is often a lot of battlefield strategy discussion that I am simply not qualified to engage in, so I don't . . . ;) <br /><br />Edit: BTW, I am seriously pissed as I am heading for the airport and gonna miss the Daytona 500 so all of you can KMA. Over and out!!
 

rodbolt

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

kailian<br /> I cant remember the general that was originally tasked with the planning of the Iraqi invasion, his name escapes me at the moment but his plan called for a delay of the invasion for 6 months to allow for equipment upgrades as he predicted the roadside bombs and IED's. he also called for a minimum invasion force of 350,000 plus troops half to invade and the other half to effectivly secure the borders to prevent the expected,and realized, influx of external terrorist supporters.<br /> he tried to tell the whitehouse we just were not ready to go and he was right,<br /> rumsfeld had him sacked and went with about 110K troops and a plan of a 3 week war and rose pedals would be tossed at the troops on the way in.<br /> I cannot find anything in rumsfelds biography that in anyway qualified him as a tactical nor strategic planner.<br /> but you have to remember, we placed saddam in power with a violent overthrow of the previous military dictator. saddam understood how overthrow worked. he ruled accordingly. thats why he allowed no terror cells to develop in Iraq and why osama issued a fatwah on him.<br /> prior to our invasion terror attacks and suicide bombers had never been seen in iraq.<br /> its not that I was so much against this ill planned and ill executed war, its that we went after the wrong countries. and with poorly equiped but motivated troops just not enough of them.<br /> I have read many books on strategic and tactical planning. warfare is something thats been studied extensivly in the past 1000 years.<br /> it has aa constant or 2.<br /> ya get there fustest with the mostest and to conquer you MUST occupy.<br /> I think had the original plan been implemented the invasion and subsequent actions would have been very different as not so many foriegn trained fighters would be in Iraq.<br /> howevfer all involved with the original planning were either transfered or sacked or like colin powell quietly faded away.<br /> to much time was wated and critical manpower diverted looking for non existant WMD's in the desert, the goal of the war changed to many times to quickly for a competent redeployment. <br /> the plans were in place but political expediency trumped them. according to a brief on the IG website rumsfeld told the administration that 350K+ troops would not be acceptable to the US public and would kill the poll numbers.<br /> its all in the reports to congress and some other fairly credible sites, as credible as I can find. yet the press stays away from them.
 

bootle

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by POINTER94:<br /> Darth, I believe the exact same statment about creating a democracy in Japan was made 60 years ago. And Germany and Italy. Guess they were wrong.
Japan was an homogenous people with a unique identity and culture, the Japanese were totally submissive to their emperor's will, had he not been persuaded to comply we would not have achieve the political results we seeked, furthermore the Korean war was the catalyst that enhanced the japanese economy by leapfrogging most of the congressional red-tape involved in such endeavors, we also have to take into account that Japan prior to and during the war was an industrial and agricultural based society, none of which applies to the Islamic middle eastern countries, though my opinion differs from yours on this point, i do agree that we cannot afford to turn our backs on radical islam, and by that i mean we as in the entire western civilised world, the USA simply cannot achieve the victory needed to overcome such an enormous task by itself without becoming totally bankrupt, we would certainly then be the worse off.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Darth,<br /><br />The tide is turning. The French want a piece of Iran, China and Russia are waivering in their support of existing middle eastern administrations, the unbridled use of violence for little or no reason by radicals, Afganistan successes, the fact we are light years ahead of what dissenters said could never happen in Iran, acknoledgement of the toothless nature and culture of corruption in the UN, and the threat to world peace, is driving world opinion against the policies of appeasement. It is going to play out sooner or later. Being on the right side of a nasty situation up front shouldn't be something to apologize for. It is going to get worse, far worse, and we are all in this together. Even the press is beginning to come around to the irrational and repressive nature of radical islam. <br /><br />I think we will all be on the same sheet of music in short order. The number of people killed will be the only variable. We are all freedom loving people, and this movement is an attack on that shared belief.
 

bootle

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

I do not trust the French, at the moment they are the ones thumpimg their chest the loudest, lets not forget that they were the ones that screwed up and got us into Vietnam.<br />The Chinese and the Russians are only looking to see how they can benefit politically and financially, they are not adverse to what we as a society find to be abhorrent.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Darth,<br /><br />The tide is turning. The French want a piece of Iran, China and Russia are waivering in their support of existing middle eastern administrations, the unbridled use of violence for little or no reason by radicals, Afganistan successes, the fact we are light years ahead of what dissenters said could never happen in Iran, acknoledgement of the toothless nature and culture of corruption in the UN, and the threat to world peace, is driving world opinion against the policies of appeasement. It is going to play out sooner or later. Being on the right side of a nasty situation up front shouldn't be something to apologize for. It is going to get worse, far worse, and we are all in this together. Even the press is beginning to come around to the irrational and repressive nature of radical islam. <br /><br />I think we will all be on the same sheet of music in short order. The number of people killed will be the only variable. We are all freedom loving people, and this movement is an attack on that shared belief.
 

woodrat

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

DD sez: "Ooohhh? Who died and made you God, so that you know what I believe and where my beliefs come from??"<br /><br />well, gee DD. Back pre-election when I was in here arguing against another Bush administration, you were one of the ones, alongside 12 footer and others, who seemed to think you knew exactly who I was and what I believed in. You guys argued with me about that, insisting that I was a dyed in the wool limp wristed liberal Democrat, because that's all that I could be if I opposed the Bush policies.<br /><br />Doesn't feel so great, does it?
 

woodrat

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"Every liberals icon FDR stuck how many Japaneese Americans in concentration camps? And we name buildings and bridges after this guy? This isn't runaway power grabbing, it is status quo. "<br /><br />I don't hink you'll find too many liberals defending that shameful episode of presidential abuse of power. I think one of the key differences here is that WWII had a well defined enemy, that actually could be defeated on the battlefield and there would be a state strucutre of some kind around to sign a surrender. In other words, a definable end to the conflict, allowing a return to some kind of pre-war norms. A "war on terror" or a "war on evil" is so broad and vague as to be undefinable. How can you defeat not a specific enemy, but a method or a feeling?<br /><br />"And who was the president for the years prior to the war? Bill Clinton? Why were we inadequately outfitted?"<br /><br />Um sorry, but actually the iraq war started in 2003, over two years into W's reign. I'm afraid that you can't lay this one on Bill. W and his boys have been "planning" - if you can call it that - for this war since before they were elected. The responsibility for how we went to war and how well prepared we were cannot be handed off to the prior administration. I thought "conservatives take responsibility"? Oh right, that was from another thread.<br /><br />As far as establishing democracy goes, we only seem to be in favor of democracy as long as the outcome pleases us and caters to our interests. Hugo Chavez, love him or hate him, is the democratically elected leader of a sovereign nation, brought into office in an election no less clean or more controversial than the last two elections in this country, yet the US aided and abetted a coup attempt to remove him. The Palestinians elected hamas to replace their existing corrupt and incompetent government. Why aren't we celebrating that as a triumph of democracy in the middle east? Oh, right, Hamas are the bad guys! So instead of constructively engaging them and holding them accountable for the task of governing palestine, we snub them publically and cut off all financial aid to palestine. Now there's a plan that is sure to promote peace in the middle east! We don't want Iran expanding it's influence over there, and then we leave palestine wide open for them to influence. We tell all those people over there that they need to convert to democracy and then when they do, we tell them we won't help them anymore, because we don't like who they elected!<br /><br /><br />DD:<br />"I do the same thing when I write about republicans---usually. I am not a dyed-in-the-wool republican supporter, by any stretch."<br /><br />I was referring to the small-d democrat as the American Heritage Dictionary defines it: "1. an advocate of democracy." In which case your statement would ring true for all of us, supposedly. If you want to trash on members of the Democratic party, it seems that a capital D is the way to go.
 
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