Anybody else listening to W?

rodbolt

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

kailian<br /> yep<br /> please describe to me the original plan VS rumesfelds plan and please please tell me how good a job was done securing the borders of Iraq to prevent the predicted,then realized, intrusion of foriegn terroists? maybe just after that you can explain to me the link between saddam and the 9/11 terrorists.<br /> man 3 easy easy questions.<br /> ill sit back and pop a cool one.<br /> stage is all yours
 

rodbolt

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

skinnywater<br /> I agree<br /> what we give up now is a slippery slope to what we give up later.<br /> they will never quit as most govt officials seem to know more about what I want and need than me.
 

Kalian

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"Agreed, but I have always held the position that we need to employ a larger force toward finding him. I know I don't run the show with our country, but why are we not committing more resources toward this effort?"<br /><br />And the other half of that mouth says we're spending too much money on the war. Oh, and don't forget the "the troops are not properly equiped" side. Kinda hard to reconcile all that.<br /><br /> You guys are just bashing because it's not your party thats in charge.
 

Skinnywater

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

You guys are just bashing because it's not your party thats in charge.
That's not fair or accurate. I just want who is in charge to be in charge.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

I think time will vidicate the arguments put forth by W and his actions for the invasion of Iraq. More and more evidence is coming foward as to what happened to the weapons of mass destruction (seria) and now ABC news has Sadam Video supporting the arguement for the existance of WMD. Funny we haven't seen it yet? But crow is something the left has enjoyed as a steady diet for many years now. Try reading "The bomb in my garden" or the new book out by one of Sadams generals that further details what kind of weapons were at Sadams disposal, their plan for use, and where they are now. But I am sure Joe Wilson and his indepth two week vacation with his buddies fits somes agenda, but even his facts claim outcomes diametrically opposed to what was reported.<br /><br />I am concerned with the boarder and UAE getting security contracts for our 6 largest ports. Yes there are things that are of concern. Hariet Myers???? What was that? But watching the press and the left gyrating over non-stories like Cheney shooting his friend and Valarie Plame just make the issues of substance slip through the cracks. They only want stories that are black and white and can fit in a 3 minute or less news bite. How about pork? The stories could be never ending. This disgusts me and blurrs the line between the parties. <br /><br />I am not happy with many things W has supported but, after clinton anyone can look good.
 

woodrat

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"Sorry guys, I can not figure why if you have done nothing wrong, why looking at your emails and stuff hurts you."<br /><br />And what if the government officials in charge of secretly spying on Americans turn out to be corrupt and/or incompetent? What if they secretly break into my house, spy on me, seize my property, arrest me and trash my reputation, or worse, arrest me secretly and "render" me to some other country who will torture me, or just lock me up indefinitely without charges and it turns out they are just plain WRONG?<br /><br />Can you imagine what that might do to your life? Can you imagine that maybe, just maybe someone in the government could be just WRONG about something? Make a WRONG assumption, or get the WRONG address? <br /><br />Checks and balances are there for a reason! And don't say that none of that could ever happen. It already has, to many people. There was that guy in Portland who was secretly spied on, house broken into and searched secretly and arrested based on faulty fingerprint analysis by the FBI for the Madrid train bombings. It was a huge mistake, and one that the Spanish authorities warned our authorities they were making, but our spooks went ahead with their WRONG assumptions anyway, and trashed this guys reputation and his life and terrorized his family. It was all so much easier for them to go rushing down the wrong trail, because the guy was also a Muslim. And because they were doing it all in secret, at their own discretion, with little or no oversight.<br /><br />There was also a Canadian citizen who was basically kidnapped at an airport and sent off to the middle east where he was tortured and imprisoned without cause for almost a year, and then released when they realized that he was nobody they were interested in. Oops!<br /><br />I saw in the paper the other day something about over 300,000 names on the domestic "terrorist watch list". I'm sorry, but if there were really 300,000 dedicated terrorists and their allies in this country, I think we would be under almost constant attack. It only took 19 and some support to bring down the towers. My conclusion? The terrorist watch list is a dishonest crock and a ruse to spy on politcal opponents and peaceniks. I'd be surprised if there were even 1000 of those names that were really and truly terrorists bent on attacking us domestically. Of course, we'll never know because the contents of that list, like so much else these days, is a state secret. If you end up on the no-fly list, well, tough sh#*, right? There's no way to clear your name, and since it's all in the name of national security, you shouldn't even be bothered about it. <br /><br />Think that this kind of thing is what the founding fathers envisioned? And no, there were no planes flying into buildings, but they did just come out of a brutal and costly war, waged on this soil, so they were no strangers to hardship and fear.<br /><br />Hope I'm not getting too offensive here, but my hackles are definitely UP. I am so tired of hearing that line that as long as I am not doing wrong, I should be happy to be secretly spied on and that I should just TRUST those in power, simply because they say I should. Our whole system of government is based on NOT simply trusting those in power, but watching and monitoring them carefully and replacing them frequently and setting up different branches to keep tabs on the others. It seems that many people now, based on FEAR, are quite happy to toss that whole thing out and to merge the whole thing into one branch of government, the "unitary executive". Or at least make it so that that branch is the only one that matters, and cannot be checked by any of the others. Doesn't anyone see where this is a BAD IDEA?<br /><br />I'm sorry, but as bad as 9/11 was, I don't believe that it trumps everything. Seems like many do though, and that is definitely the angle that this administration has been playing ever since late 2001.<br /><br />Whew! Now I need to crack a cold one!
 

rodbolt

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

dang<br /> haut hit it<br />no one else bothered. just got more of the same.<br />pointer, they are coming up with years old stuff, some of it back in the 90'ssome from fat boy and curve ball.<br /> most from a table of folks that if they said otherwise they would have been shot at their chair, ole saddamy was known to do that once or twice or about 55 times.<br /> the suitcase bomb is a hollywood myth, it does not exist, to move a WMD facility in a month or 3 would leave traces, that coupled with the fact Iraq could not and was not( remember we were monitoring the power grid) produce enough electricity to maintain a weapons program says it all.<br /> the W regime has lost any and all credibility and not only with the iraq thing, name ONE part of the katrina thing that really really by any stretch could or should be hidden behind the national security cloak then tell me why parts were.<br />or go ask colin powel why he and some others quietly resighned
 

CJY

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"Agreed, but I have always held the position that we need to employ a larger force toward finding him. I know I don't run the show with our country, but why are we not committing more resources toward this effort?"<br /><br />And the other half of that mouth says we're spending too much money on the war. Oh, and don't forget the "the troops are not properly equiped" side. Kinda hard to reconcile all that.<br />
No Kalian, the other half of the mouth is nothing more than you making excuses for all that is wrong with the war.
 

CJY

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Kalian, what are we presently doing in Iraq? Are we on the offensive? The answer is no, we are not. We are holding position while the suicide bombers kill US troops almost daily. If we are at war, let's get the job done and stop screwing around. Where is the plan????? Is our plan to wait for them to run out of suicide bombers? That is what Rumsfeld and Company appear to be doing. If they cannot handle this, W needs to recognize this quickly and make some changes. What a circus we presently have going on.
 

CJY

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

based on FEAR
Woodrat, you have hit this nail on the head. This administration absolutely uses fear to operate. Better watch out or we will go into code orange. But.....go ahead and go on vacation with your family so those terrorist no they are not winning. Or...is it go on vacation because our economy cannot afford for you to stop spending money?
 

Kalian

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Making excuses? I think not. I'm simply trying to put together everything you guys say against the war. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Is it more resources and more money expended or is it less resources and less money expended that you want?<br /> What war plan is perfect? What war has a preconcieved plan that acounts for everything that happens? War is a series of unanounced manuevers and happenings. Some may be predicted but you can never have a plan that covers everything. Maybe the troops ARE simply defending right now, I don't know. But at least they're doing it in Osomas backyard, not ours.
 

dogsdad

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

The democrat hath great fury, for he knows his time is short.
 

dogsdad

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by CJY:<br /> Kalian, what are we presently doing in Iraq? Are we on the offensive? The answer is no, we are not.
On the contrary. The establishment of democracy is the offensive, and it is happening. The establishment of democracy in Iraq is opposed by the radical Islamists because it spells the end of their stranglehold on the region and threatens to topple their regimes like dominoes. Success in Iraq may be our best chance of avoiding a shooting war with Iran. Think about it.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Woodrat,<br /><br />I don't know about some of these "kidnapping" and to deny they occured would be silly on my part, but I do know it took more than 19 people to hatch and execute 9/11.<br /><br />Interesting how we give the president the power to execute terrorists but not listen to their phone calls. What exactly does a judge have over the CIC and how many have to die to meet a threshold that is amost impossible to meet. And please, this program was instituted by CARTER, and used by all presidents since. Now the left and the press has a problem? Seems a little self serving. Rile up the masses and point them in the 60's mantra of you can't trust government. We ARE at a state of war. You don't think that Germans in America during WWII were not under surveilence? Believing in the validity doesn't change the fact that we are in a state war. And the democrats (the opposition) were made aware of this program from the beginning. Check and balance?<br /><br />I do find it interesting how we find unwarranted arrests, searches and seizures are unacceptable for American citizens, but ok to Sadam? Not our problem? Rape, murder? I can appreciate why some can find this war questionable, but not unwarranted. And to be so submissive of any and all other points of views, especially those who were actually on the ground during the buildup to the war isn't rational.<br /><br />I for one don't want the government anywhere near me or my lifestyle, and perhaps if the actions outlined by you that may have occured to others is real, I would be steaming mad. We have civil court. Not that it could adequately address the crime but even our government can be held accountable. I have to think you are right if 300,000 are on the watch list, but 50,000 wouldn't surprise me in the least. I believe this is a REAL threat. How we get to it, is meaningful. It should be effective but at the same time consistant with the rights afforded all citizens.<br /><br />I would like to beleive that our government does the right things for the right reasons. I hope I am right, cuz those same powers afforded and used by the past several presidents, will most likely be available to the next, and I fear who that might be.<br /><br />I am sure that fear is a strong weapon against terrorists. I would like them so fearful they have to wear a diaper.
 

woodrat

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"The democrat hath great fury, for he knows his time is short." <br /><br />Nicely put, with the small "d" and everything...
 

Skinnywater

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

The establishment of democracy is the offensive, and it is happening. The establishment of democracy in Iraq is opposed by the radical Islamists because it spells the end of their stranglehold on the region and threatens to topple their regimes like dominoes. Success in Iraq may be our best chance of avoiding a shooting war with Iran.
If democracy was such a great weapon then we could pass all "in theater" arms over to the newly democratic government and go home next month. Instead, be rest assured we'll be there for at least 50 years babysitting democracy.<br />Nice theory though in static. Dynamically there is the issue of daily (unanswered)strikes against our forces. Dynamically we give (a few here, a few there)of our rights domestically for democracy there.<br /><br />Dynamically the idea of warfare and nation building at the same time, at the same place, is an oxymoron that simply makes my head hurt.....
 

woodrat

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

"I don't know about some of these "kidnapping" and to deny they occured would be silly on my part, but I do know it took more than 19 people to hatch and execute 9/11."<br /><br />The muslim family in Portland was big news nationally even. It is not some story the liberals made up to get back at W. <br />More than 19 to do 9/11? Most definitely. But 300,000 dedicated terrorists and their supporters INSIDE the US? I seriously doubt that, and so should you. <br />------<br />"Interesting how we give the president the power to execute terrorists but not listen to their phone calls. What exactly does a judge have over the CIC and how many have to die to meet a threshold that is amost impossible to meet. And please, this program was instituted by CARTER, and used by all presidents since. Now the left and the press has a problem?"<br /><br />There is a court process set up just for these kind of situations. W is deliberately not using it, mostly to set a precedent that the president, the "unitary executive", doesn't have to obey laws he doesn't like. Did the administration lobby a mostly prostrate Congress to make FISA even more user friendly? Surely a Congress who passed PATRIOT sight unseen, and waved through every supreme court nominee but the hapless Harriet Myers isn't going to deny W a minor tweak on FISA? But the W crowd didn't even bother to ask.<br />-----------<br />"I would like to beleive that our government does the right things for the right reasons. I hope I am right, cuz those same powers afforded and used by the past several presidents, will most likely be available to the next, and I fear who that might be."<br /><br />I don't believe that about our government, or any other government for that matter. I just don't trust ANYONE with unchecked and unfettered power. I wouldn't trust any Democrat, Green or even Libertarian who was claiming the kind of monarchical power that this administration seems to be looking for. We are in a war with no clearly defined enemy or goals, a war that need not ever end. So the "emergency powers" that are being applied here, will be applied for the long term future. If we acquiecse to this shift of power, there is no telling when or if it will ever go back the other way, because the war on "evil" as it is called, is by definition, without end. And that is what really concerns me, and evidentally a few prominent conservatives these days, as well. <br /><br />I intend no disrespect to you, pointer or anyone else on this forum, but I just am not willing to trust government, especially this government, to always or even mostly do the right thing for the right reasons. <br /><br />I understand that we are in a real mess, that we can't really just walk away from iraq now, and that yes, terrorists of the middle eastern persuasion are something to look out for, but I'm not willing to buy into the permanent fear and war proposition. Nor do I believe that the policies of this administration have made things better, or that they are likely to. In the end, I realize that it probably doesn't really matter what I'm willing to buy into, because the momentum is definitely in the direction of the "unitary executive". The VP could have killed that lawyer at 10 yards, looking him right in the eyes, with a half empty whisky bottle in his other hand in front of network TV cameras and it still wouldn't have put a meaningful dent in this administration. No matter how bad things are, people are going to stick to the plan as long as we are at war, and it looks like we are going to be at war for a very long time.<br /><br />peace
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

And that is the reason these political threads never go anywhere.<br />The one's over there <<<< are trying to change the minds of the one's over there >>>> and it will never happen.<br />I'm done now.
 

dogsdad

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Re: Anybody else listening to W?

Originally posted by woodrat:<br /> "The democrat hath great fury, for he knows his time is short." <br /><br />Nicely put, with the small "d" and everything...
I do the same thing when I write about republicans---usually. I am not a dyed-in-the-wool republican supporter, by any stretch.
 
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