ANOTHER WATER IN OIL QUESTION

blando

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1998 4.3 , raw water cooling , no oil cooler
-milky tannish white thin oil from the pan
-thicker looking in valve cover area
-oil up a 1/2 quart
only 3 small droplets from spark plug in cylinder 2. plugs normal looking- not white.
-new head gaskets, riser and exhaust gaskets, intake manifold gasket.
-manifold and risers passed the acetone test( i know not 100% dependable at all) will prob end up doing a pressure test. off the boat
-So i have done the water jacket coolant pressure test (with the pressure dropping very slow, cant see needle move but it does from 10 to 5 over a half hour, )
-no sound from valve covers or carb, or dipstick.
-Is the thermostat supposed to be removed for this test?
-AND with loosing pressure at this slow rate an no air from carb or dipstick or valve covers, should i move on or is there a small leak, crack ( that prob is larger at operating temp)?
 

blando

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Eastern nc.
yes properly winterized.

ran it on muffs with new oil and oil level rose fairly quickly, sooo.

decided to take risers and manifold's off

found a puddle of water in starboard side exh manifold in exhaust port
port side exh mani was dry.
riser exh mani gasket has questionable spot, where water may hve crossed but its not clear. Ill post pic in a minute
 

Scott Danforth

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run your water jacket pressure test at 15 psi. should hold indefinately

the water in the manifold may be a secondary issue.

how did you winterize? Eastern NC got well below freezing this past winter a few days.
 

blando

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How would the water get in the one exhaust manifold only.
I ran it several times this summer after a tear down for water intrusion by carb from dog house off and cover sitting on the flame arrester during a few rain storms.. Didnt know this was possible so I tore it down looking for the usual suspects, found nothin. No signs of water in exhaust , cracked block in galley or any other place, intake manifold was good. Ran it several times this summer without any water in engine.
Im tearing it down now. Just pressure tested starboard exhaust manifold , and no leaks. Still slightly suspicious of the riser gasket although it was new metal gasket, mating surfaces are good without thinning.
 

blando

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Just found a breach in the port side exhaust exh manifold. Not big but was fizzing up on 2nd port like a sprite but smaller bubbles. Im sure enough to let water in at running temps with expansion.. Any input is appreciated. Going to look at heads and intake manifolds now. going to do another pressure test on cooling system while i can see in engine better.
 

Bondo

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Just found a breach in the port side exhaust exh manifold. Not big but was fizzing up on 2nd port like a sprite but smaller bubbles. Im sure enough to let water in at running temps with expansion.. Any input is appreciated. Going to look at heads and intake manifolds now. going to do another pressure test on cooling system while i can see in engine better.
Ayuh,.... Even if it was a gusher, the water couldn't get to the oil, with the motor runnin',....
 

blando

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Ayuh,.... Even if it was a gusher, the water couldn't get to the oil, with the motor runnin',....
gotcha and Thank you

so just did another pr test on coolant passages and forgot to let the water out from the last trial run that failed as mentioned above..

so what happened is a bunch of water shot out from the front of the intake manifold into cylinders intake ports when i let the water out there was loud hissing. I suspect this means a compromised intake manifold???

Im gonna check it it now
 

blando

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gotcha and Thank you

so just did another pr test on coolant passages and forgot to let the water out from the last trial run that failed as mentioned above..

so what happened is a bunch of water shot out from the front of the intake manifold into cylinders intake ports when i let the water out there was loud hissing. I suspect this means a compromised intake manifold???

Im gonna check it it now
Nope. Manifold held acetone all night and no hissing when pressurized to 20 psi.
 

blando

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So heres a new one on Me. Just took heads to the machine shop to get leak tested and he found where 2 of the the intake valves (for 2 &4) on the starboard head were actually bending inward (tuliping), which he said can cause a vacuum pulling water into the cylinder.
 

Rick Stephens

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So heres a new one on Me. Just took heads to the machine shop to get leak tested and he found where 2 of the the intake valves (for 2 &4) on the starboard head were actually bending inward (tuliping), which he said can cause a vacuum pulling water into the cylinder.
Running lean and probably too much timing advance. Don't run it until you fix that issue.
 

blando

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Running lean and probably too much timing advance. Don't run it until you fix that issue.
Exactly what he said at the machine shop. Fortunately its fixed, unfortunately too late. Valve job being done now. trueing mating surfaces, pressure and magniflux testing if necessary.

Both ex manifolds are cracked, bubbles with pressurized water in test on bench.
 

blando

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Is it possible with the motor running and the exhaust manifolds getting water in them (which definitely is happening), the (tuliped)valve creates a vacuum that sucks water into the engine where as it gets in to the pan quickly while running?
Im thinking there's a crack somewhere near #2 cylinder(as well as the exh manifolds cracked and tuliped valves) based on the air sound when under air pressure.

On top of the other issues im trying to deduce if the block is cracked.

Heads are good (now) but machine shop guy said one head(Starboard cylinder #2 had a surface anomaly from bad gasket or not sealing , where it need to be milled. Could That could have been the leak air sound under pressure i heard from the #2 spark plug hole?
 

nola mike

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Heads are good (now) but machine shop guy said one head(Starboard cylinder #2 had a surface anomaly from bad gasket or not sealing , where it need to be milled. Could That could have been the leak air sound under pressure i heard from the #2 spark plug hole?
Possible. Did you do a compression test prior to teardown? Probably would have shown up there if that were the case.
 

blando

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The valve by itself is not likely to get water into the oil quickly. Most likely a crack in the block or head.
No cracks in the heads but The fairly new (maybe 5 hours on them) Marine head gaskets on same side was burnt and obviously shredded in a couple small spots. Seemed to happen right after putting in 93 octane and hearing pinging with WOT( advance timing i found after rechecking with light) (i usually run 89, im cheap, but i think the combination of advanced timing and higher octane may have been bad news for this situation).
Could the combination of the head gasket failure and tuliped valves allow water into the sump /oil pan very quickly while running on muffs?
 

Rick Stephens

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Occam's razor tells me there's a crack. I can't imagine a head gasket getting water in the oil quickly while running. I suppose it's possible considering a bad valve.

Higher octane fuel will handle more compression and more advance than low octane fuel. Nothing will handle lean and too much advance. All it takes is a little crud in your carburetor.
 

blando

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Occam's razor tells me there's a crack. I can't imagine a head gasket getting water in the oil quickly while running. I suppose it's possible considering a bad valve.

Higher octane fuel will handle more compression and more advance than low octane fuel. Nothing will handle lean and too much advance. All it takes is a little crud in your carburetor.
yeah probably right, just not trying to pull the motor again , but its looking like that or put back together and start all over at the cost of gaskets and time. then pr test water system again.

BTW 2 bad valves..

No cracks in the galley or any of the usual places between pistons, stud /bolt or water jacket areas. but ill keep looking . Just had the motor out a month ago and torn down and no cracks then. Its not frozen here since then but i guess if there were a weak spot that when the detonation and or heat surge from advanced timing that caused the valves to tulip happened, it could have . Do they break in the lower end ?
 
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blando

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unfortunately i did not.
Possible. Did you do a compression test prior to teardown? Probably would have shown up there if that were the case.
It definitely would have shown a bad head gasket (bec it was compromised in a couple spots)

when i did the pressure test of the cooling system I heard significant air in cylinder 2 spark plug hole and less in #4, not the valve covers or from dip stick
 
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