Aluminum 1977 Crestliner Rebuild Finally Underway

[Patfromny]

I appreciate the input WM as usual. My problem is in defining the purpose of the boat. The hierarchy of purposes is as follows. Blasting around the lake, taking the wife and daughter for blasts around the lake, tubing and possible water skiing if it is fast enough, and some fishing with one or two people and light gear. Maybe one tackle box and a few rods. For the site seeing and hanging on the lake, we have the pontoon. This boat is mainly the fun with speed type set up. I will say my confusion/unwillingness to pull the trigger is due to the way the boat leaves right now. It is up on plane in an instant. Will the smaller prop hurt that? I have thought about the two prop thing and it seems like something I wouldn't find too fun after the second time. Having to change it to ski wouldn't be a problem but changing it back after a few hours of skiing or the next morning seems like something I would dread. Watch the video above and compare to yours. Does yours leave that hard too. Is so there will be one on the way to the lake by tomorrow.

Something you might find interesting. I called one of the local marinas up there looking for prop choices that my brother could just drive and get rather then wait for UPS. This guy said he had a 16 ft. bass tracker there he was servicing and it had a non etec 40 on it. He said it had an 11.75 x 17 prop on it and that it went 41-42. He had no reason to lie, maybe embellish a bit but boy did that give me something to shoot for. I would image it leaves like an old man leaving the hospital after a knee replacement but boy would 41 be alot of fun. This same guy was telling me last year how I could switch to 50 carbs on those earlier 40's to make it a 50 so maybe there was a little bit of that going on. But he didn't say there was.

 

[Watermann]

I watched the video and yeah she jumps right up and I can tell the boat isn't loaded down. My 16'r with the 55 does the same with that load but once both livewells are filled and 2 more guys that are 250 each are in with me she struggles. You could pull a skier on 2 skis but I don't think you could pull a slalom out without drowning them first.

Yeah there's no way a 40 HP motor will push a 16'r with 2 guys and gear much more than the high 20's... over 30 I doubt it would happen, 40 no way I don't believe that.. I get 31 MPH with just me in the boat and no water in the wells. You're talking only a few MPH gains anyway when it comes to these small motors and changing props, it's best to just get the motor to where it's running at top RPM when lightly loaded. I don't know what the RPM range is for that motor, mines 5500 is all. If a 13p was too high in the RPM range then you would need to look at getting a higher pitch depending on how much higher it's revving over it's range.

 

[Watermann]

Just for some perspective. I do have some experience with higher HP propping too, my 18' Chief has 205 HP 4.3L V6 and I've settled on a 14 x 23p QS Black Diamond and it looks monstrous next to the little prop on my Johnny. The difference in the power and torque of a car motor over a small 2 stroke is night and day. The way I have it propped right now I basically get 1 MPH for every 100 RPM but the amount of HP it takes to gain speed over 35 gets crazy. For instance at just under half throttle I'm running on the 4 BBL carbs primaries at my cruising speed of 30 MPH. It takes the entire rest of the throttle through the pop can sized secondaries to get up another 18 MPH so that's little over half the speed achieved with more than half the throttle. There's also a loud mighty roar that goes along with it and lots of fuel being sucked down. :lol: I don't know if you've seen my video I put together in my thread. The 205 makes for a muscle boat with lots of grunt and I could prop it even more but it's not a good idea due to the stress it puts on your drive unit.

My speedo is .5 mph light off of GPS,

 

[Patfromny]

Yeah, I kinda thought 40 was a stretch too. I grew up skiing behind a 14 foot Glasser with a 74ish 40. I think it had a two blade prop. No exhaust thru for sure. It was a tiny little thing. I think it went like 26 or so. We would get up on two skis and drop one when we past the ski dock and if you were on the dock waiting your turn you would pull it out of the water. Easy peesy. My buddy who lived there was a bit cockier and would take the ski off his foot, put it on his shoulder, and place it on the dock as he went by. I'm kinda hoping this thing will get me up on skis again. It's been over 30 years now. Crazy how time flies, I can still hear the sound the slalom ski makes behind you cutting through the water like it was yesterday. 30 years....jeez.

The 13 pitch was too high because it wasn't cupped. I am running at 5100 with the 15p on there which is a cupped blade. Sooo, you were right and I need a 13p cupped prop which should put me at 5500ish. Gonna check to see if any of the local marinas have one to borrow before buying because I'm super cheap, super cheap. Im a Super cheap, super cheap. (sung to the song super freak). I wouldn't mind it bogging down with a few people in it. No live wells and maybe 12 pounds of fishing gear. For the most part it's joy rides alone or with another. 25 with two people would be a trip. 15 was the number with two people before. Thanks for telling me 6 times to buy a 13p. I'm a little slow to learnin. Lol. You were right, I over thought it. What a shock. I am going to try the 13.5 first though. I don't like changing two things at once. I'll try to borrow a 13.5 x 13 and if that goes well I'll try the 12.5 x 13er.

 

[Patfromny]

That's just crazy. I have read that it gets tough after 30 or 35. The sick part about your second half throttle is that the second half of your power band is where the power increases the most. So it probably takes 2/3 the power of your boat to get that last 18mph. And that's all happening on plane too. The tough part is over. Torque is probably the main factor in planing. I believed your assessment from the start but happened to have these two props handy. I thought they were both cupped but apparently the 13p isn't. I have never experienced the roar on a boat but have done plenty of drag racing and the roar happens a couple of times when raking through the gears. As we got faster the roar was ungodly. It was more like the whine from a rice rocket but ten times as loud and much deeper. It was so loud that the video recorder wasn't able to capture the sound. It sounded like the wind on some of these boat videos. Just a choppy mess. What size carb do you have on the 4.3? A four barrel on a six is pretty sick. Those 4.3s are a real good setup.

I am secretly hoping for 35 but have resigned myself to believing 32 or 33 is probably the number.

 

[Watermann]

The carbs a Rochester QJ, I believe 600cfm like the one in the pic below but with mechanical 4 bbl linkage not vacuum.

 

[Patfromny]

That sounds a bit on the large side for a six. Your gas gauge must get a work out...up, down, up, down.

My first car was a 69 Firebird with a 400 motor back in the day and had a holley 750 vac. Secondary that I absolutely loved. Less gas and smoother then the double pumper with mechanical secondaries. My boss at the time built the same car and wanted to make it faster than mine but his own way. He didn't want to take any of my advice and in fact often wanted to hear what I thought so he could go another way. I found it funny and flattering. He never beat me either. The one thing he did right in my mind was his carb choice. He built an old Rochester 800 and that thing ran almost as smooth as fuel injection. Boy were they much better drivability wise than the holleys. The holleys all had this off idle stumble that you just couldn't get rid of.

So I got some bad news today and then, maybe some good. I tried to order the 12.5 x 13 prop and, as I've said, it never came up when I typed in my engine. So I go to the link you left and went to order it. It wouldn't let me order a hub because it was for your engine. 10 mins later I find 3 different 12.5 x 13's when I searched hustler props. One was discoed I guess because it never popped up when clicking on it. The other was your PN. But there was another PN hu1213ao or oa. It said it had the hole shot vents. No price though, so I call iboats and she can't find it. I tell her where on her site it is and she still can't find it. We guessed that it is new and not available yet. She couldn't order yours with my hub. Round and round again. She was great and very helpful. She finally told me I should call TP and talk to there tech support guy Phil and she gave me his number.

I call Phil and explain the situation. He says oh boy, you are in some trouble. We don't make a prop that will get you in the rpm range. Apparently I need to get closer to the max horse rating for my boat to be able to prop successfully. Or I could have gotten lucky with one that is available. He said that the 12.5 x 13 isn't recommended for the etec because the exhaust would blow through the outdrives around the prop and it would cavitate like crazy. He said I'd be lucky to get 10 out of it. Something to that effect. I don't remember exactly because I was openly full out sobbing into the phone. Phil was definitely weirded out but was courteous enough to not say anything and pause during the real bad blathering. :lol:

Actually, I was in a state of shock and dejection so some of the info went right through me. Why isn't it ever easy for me? I always seem to need the albino unicorn. Anyway, he was great and super knowledgable. He recommended a guy who he said was the best prop guy in the nation. Phil btw had his own prop shop for 33 years and has worked for TP for 7 or so. He gave me the number to Tim at performance props in Tenn. In hopes of sending him my 13.75 x 13 and have him re-pitch it to a 14 and cup it. He said that that should do it.

So the next call was to Tim...getting real old but at least there is some progress. Tim answers and is super nice. I tell him my story and before I can continue with why Phil sent me he stops me and says he has an old style omc 13.75 x 15 he'll sell me for 75 bucks. Sold. He said it was one of the best props made for bombardier. So I have a prop on the way but it is a discoed model. Albino unicorn. :grumpy:

 

[Patfromny]

Oh, WM, when I asked about your prop he said that I couldn't use it but that your style or the smaller lower unit older engines would run circles around my motor with that prop on them. He then giggled and said he was sorry for doing so but the truth is the truth. Made me so happy I bought an etec. He said if I had a 90 on the back it would blow away most but that if the etec engine is too far away from the max horse rating it can get tricky. I find it hard to believe that prop companies and even Evinrude would leave such a hole in their offering. A hole I fell into with both feet. All I need is either a non cupped 13.75 x 15 or a cupped 13.5 x 13. Crazy that it doesn't exist. I found a Solas that is a 13.5 x 14 but it doesn't say it is cupped so if it isnt, I'll be over the rpm range by 200. If cupped I'll be under by 200. Hoping it's cupped. I need to find a prop that I don't need to get re-pitched and cupped every time I hit a rock. Tomorrow my brother is going to borrow some props from a neighboring marina that says I might be able to find something in the 14 inch area. He says, and I don't believe, that each 1/4 inch will decrease rpm by 200. I told him that wasn't right and he said that's what he was taught at prop school. Whatever. He's very cool to lend me 3 or 4 props to test and he said he'd buy the props I have that don't work. He's also going to give me a price on re-pitching and cupping one of my brothers damaged props which are in real good shape but need a bit of smoothing. I hit a sand bar last year at about a mile an hour.

 

[Watermann]

Good lord... really? Sounds like me with my fuel tank getting beat up at every turn.

Oh and iboats has your Etec TP prop in a 14x13p with hub kit (13 tooth spline) for 122 bucks with free shipping.
http://boatpropellers.iboats.com/Evi...t_id=289980653

 

[Patfromny]

Thanks for looking out. I'm prob. Gonna try the 14 x 13 as long as it's cupped tomorrow. The neighboring lakes marina seems very helpful and has offered me any prop I want to try. He mentioned the 14 but if it isn't cupped I will be in 6 grand land again. Just have this notion that smaller is faster. Oh well. I guess I would rather have a 14 off the shelf than a custom prop for when my neices and nephew so start taking her out by themselves. Which should be next year. :faint2:

It's a shame you live across the world from me. My buddy Scott, my savior throughout this build, is my go to guy. I texted my woes and he texted back three prop guys he heard were good and one who is a customer of his that he could probably get a break for me. I'm sure he knows someone that builds tanks cheap

 

[oldhaven]

Sorry to hear about your frustrating search. It's hard to believe that in the huge array of props around there is not a type that will suit your circumstances. I am afraid I can be of no help, except to suggest that you don't let perfection be the enemy of the good. If you can find one that get you into the upper half of WOT but lacks a few MPH of what you want, maybe that is the one you need for the rest of the summer.

 

[Patfromny]

I am afraid I can be of no help, except to suggest that you don't let perfection be the enemy of the good. If you can find one that get you into the upper half of WOT but lacks a few MPH of what you want, maybe that is the one you need for the rest of the summer.

Thanks oldhaven, I agree and have discussed that with my brother. The best rpm we can do so far without over revving is 5100 which is below their recommend range but it does go 30 and is a fun ride according to my brother. I think the max speed hunt was dependant on there being ample sizes to play with. Although I want the thing going as fast as it can, I won't spend wildly to do so. If the few props that are being leant to us today do not bear fruit I will try this older style prop I bought(it was cheap) and possibly buy the 14 x 13 that Watermann just posted. The summer is pretty much over and I think worst case, the prop on there now spinning the motor at 5100 will more than suffice. I'm more ticked that I can't get her within range with an Evinrude prop. Evinrude prop just because they are what is available for loan and since they built the engine you'd think they'd offer one that would work. I'll keep you posted. I'm hoping my brother is willing to give up another day of his vacation changing props for me. We are going up for the weekend next week and I'm sure my wife will not want me to waste the weekend doing so.

 

[Patfromny]

So I have finally driven the beast... and it was good. We got up to the lake late Friday night with friends. We had a few and it was early Saturday morning before we knew it. We slept late and we're all but awoken by the mechanic from the lake (Roger). He came to help me test the prop I bought from tenn. I had just poured my first cup of coffee so I was a mess. Down to the lake we go. Rip off the cover and lose all the bungee's in the lake. Take off the fast prop I really wanted to test before hand and put on the new one. 28 mph at 5150. Loser. I pull back in and I was telling him how I want to take the cup out of the 15 pitch prop. He said he was going over to the prop shop after me and offered to take it. Great, but now I have the newest failure or the 13 pitch. I decide to change to the 13 because we had two couples up for the weekend and might be loading the boat with people or tubibing. I didn't want the engine lugging so on went the 13.

Holy cow. This boat is fast. It went 28 with me like it did with my brother but it was at 28 in a sneeze. Fun to drive, quiet, and fast. Over the course of the weekend this boat just kept impressing. 28 with me, 27 with my wife and I, and then, the impressive part. Three guys from avg to large, 25...two people and a tuber dragging behind, 25. The boat just will not go below 25. I figured the extra load was just putting the engine into the 5600 range and it was happy. I have now stopped worrying about the max speed thing. I will still search for the 5600 prop and hopefully the De cupping of the 15 will get me there but I don't care if it goes 32. I will be happy with 30 or 29. The 13 pitch prop was plenty if that's all I get. I just want to get it into the 5600 range so I don't have to keep changing props. I will always have the 13 laying around if I need it for tubbing. It is my brothers spare. This is a whole new boat with the new engine. Super happy.

 

[Patfromny]

Sorry, no pics but it did happen. I had to entertain and felt funny recording woo Hoos. They all saw the ear to ear grin. I'll be sure to tape the next props maiden voyage. We will be going up sometime in September with my daughter and maybe one of her friends. There'll be some me time then.

 

[Watermann]

Glad to hear you got some good times in with the prop testing.

 

[mickyryan]

props are a tricky thing aren't they?

 

[Patfromny]

Hey Mick, welcome to the thread. I can't tell you how complex this has been. Add to that the fact that there doesn't seem to be a prop made for my particular set up and I am now in custom prop land. I will get it figured out eventually but the boat sits 4 hrs away and it has been one thing after the other preventing us from getting up there. I did have the cup taken out of the 15 pitch prop and it is waiting for me at the prop shop up there. Can't wait to test it and see if it does the trick or if I need to go in another direction. I honestly can't wait to get her home for the winter so I can go through and learn the engine. I had the marina there install the engine for logistical reasons and except for the one weekend last month, I haven't really done so much as take the cowl off. I thought this would be an easy thing to do but by day two quickly realized I was completely wrong. Everyone seems to have their own idea or theory about what props do and which one will work. They are most often completely opposite sides of the spectrum. I started out at 6000 rpm with a 13 pitch. I had a 15 pitch and going by the vast majority of literature out there, this 15 should have taken the rpms down 400. Well, they went down 800? The motor has less than 500 hrs on it and has no error codes presently or in its history. We were using the evinrude software on a laptop to get rpms and poked through the the engines vitals while it was hooked up. These were the only two props available within the range I needed. So where do I go from there? I had two opposing opinions from people I actually spoke to and got a sense that they knew what they were talking about. One said to take the 13 pitch, have it re-pitched to a 14 and have it cupped. The other opinion, juxtaposed from that one of course, was to take the 15 pitch, take the cup out, and shave a half inch total off the prop.

The second opinion was by an iboats member that gave me his number and we spoke about it. I took his suggestion because he definitely seemed knowledgable and way experienced. He spent plenty of time explaining things to me which I appreciated. It was a Sunday and he was out on his boat with friends. (Thank you jakedawg) I took the cup out but didn't take anything off the diameter. I like doing one thing at a time and seeing what happens.

So that is where I sit. As usual, my boat is special and the laws of physics don't apply. Lol. If the 15 pitch doesn't work out I will try the re-pitch and cup thing on the other prop. I also might play with engine height as the cavitation plate is even with the bottom of the hull and I have read in the evinrude shop manual that it might work best an inch above. So there are several ways to go here still if only I had the time to get up there. It has been frustrating but not life altering. It is still just a boat. I'll get there one way or another. Probably next year though. Looks like I won't get up until october.

Thanks for stopping in bud. Good luck with your boat. The videos looked promising and 40 mph is pretty good with the added weight and wind resistance the pilot house must have made. It looks great though. Nothing like having a cool, unique boat to float around in.

 

[mickyryan]

man I'm not even ready to ever adventure into prop land lol that **** gives me a headache just reading your post , lol love the crestliner

 

[Patfromny]

Yeah, I thought it would be a simple act of moving up or down the pitch line. It has been mind numbing. But you are right where you want to be anyway. I have another prop thread and the consensus seems to be that because the boat is under powered by so much (max hp 90 and has a 40 hp on it) that the pitch or even the cup will have a much more drastic effect. I don't know if I totally believe that but what do I know really. I am learning a bunch though. That is one of my favorite things about this build. I am learning stuff. Old dog new tricks, who'd a thunk it.:laugh:
Thanks for the complements. I can't really take much credit though. I pretty much left it original. I just lightened the color a touch. With the blue interior, I didn't have many directions to go and I am a blue fan anyway. If I were to do it again I may have changed the interior color to grey. I recently read a thread with a blue boat and Grey interior and kinda kicked myself. I really like the combo. Maybe on the next one...yeah, right.

 

[mickyryan]

that's been my greatest take away as well from this hobby, there is always a new facet to keep me interested lol, I love seeing the cabin cruiser that's aluminum, I almost had one but a guy beat me to it! since I prefer smaller trailer able boats Eventually I will need to Build another or buy another for crabbing and such, something for shallows and was thinking about these aluminum boats but worry about salt.
got side tracked sorry , check out the prop guard that is supposed to give you a increase in speed , maybe that would be what the doctor ordered and the smart tabs.