Almost took a life Saturday

[boltonranger]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Almost took a life? Doesn't that mean more than anything else? You're saying you almost took a life because somebody else had no pfd, no lights or whatever, but don't you realize YOU still almost took a life. Not their parents negligence. YOU. Not their no lights, YOU.
You were going too fast. Too fast for what you ask? --Too fast to see the unknown at night and safely react. I love when people say "but the speed limit was X. I was in the right". That's the limit not the recommendation. Not a required speed. You proved you were going too fast by the shock you felt at finding the other boaters so close. You were unaware and unsafe and just flat lucky YOU didn't kill someone. You wouldn't have been the only one to blame; but you would have been the one doing the killing. Don't agree?
Well let me ask in all seriousness: Did the kayakers almost hit YOU when THEY were going too fast? Did those little kids almost take YOUR life? -br

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

No one seems to commented on the fact that the kids weren't wearing PFDs. Gross negligence on the part of the parent(s) on top of the rest.

there have been many comments that the parents' conduct was outrageous, unjustified and perhaps criminal. It's so obvious it doesn't warrant much discussion. What makes this situation difficult is that the OP arguably was in the right, some disagree, and the yakkers clearly in the wrong, although too young to know perhaps, but they are humans nonetheless.
If it were drunk 40 year olds in the yaks, there would be more "it's their fault not yours" but that doesn't take away the horrible prospect of killing someone, regardless of fault.

 

[mandopickr]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Believe it or not, people navigate on plane on inland lakes and waterways every night, and do so safely. On the lake where I boat, each evening in the warmer months, you will see 20+ boats going to and from restaurants after dark. I have watched them pass while still fishing, and have safely and predictably navigated among them. Depending on the restaurant, it is a 2-7 mile run each way. I?m been watching them do this for 40 years. In fact 35 yrs ago, a couple of the popular restaurants were some 15 miles away.

I understand there are those who wouldn?t feel comfortable navigating at night, or if in the lake at night, only at no-wake speed. That doesn?t make other night boaters ?idiots?, nor do they need to be demonized. Boating at night on plane where appropriate can not only be done safely, but is done safely on a regular basis.

This situation is no different from one night I was following a friend after a weekend camping trip. He was doing about 35 mph, and rounds an uphill corner to find a child in the road. Luckily, the child lived. The parents were sitting on the porch; they didn?t realize the child had wandered into the road. While it was a very terrifying night, no one suggested we drive around at 5 mph after that incident.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Believe it or not, people navigate on plane on inland lakes and waterways every night, and do so safely. On the lake where I boat, each evening in the warmer months, you will see 20+ boats going to and from restaurants after dark. I have watched them pass while still fishing, and have safely and predictably navigated among them. Depending on the restaurant, it is a 2-7 mile run each way. I’m been watching them do this for 40 years. In fact 35 yrs ago, a couple of the popular restaurants were some 15 miles away.

I understand there are those who wouldn’t feel comfortable navigating at night, or if in the lake at night, only at no-wake speed. That doesn’t make other night boaters “idiots”, nor do they need to be demonized. Boating at night on plane where appropriate can not only be done safely, but is done safely on a regular basis.

This situation is no different from one night I was following a friend after a weekend camping trip. He was doing about 35 mph, and rounds an uphill corner to find a child in the road. Luckily, the child lived. The parents were sitting on the porch; they didn’t realize the child had wandered into the road. While it was a very terrifying night, no one suggested we drive around at 5 mph after that incident.

Well said...

During the summer the sun is so strong here in Texas and we have a family full of fair skinned people, We prefer to boat from about 5pm until 10pm or later. Any one of the nearby lakes we frequent have a fair amount of after dark traffic, boats running around on plane. The only problem I encounter is the occasional knucklehead that insists on running with his docking lights on.

 

[scrit9mm]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Almost took a life? Doesn't that mean more than anything else? You're saying you almost took a life because somebody else had no pfd, no lights or whatever, but don't you realize YOU still almost took a life. Not their parents negligence. YOU. Not their no lights, YOU.
You were going too fast. Too fast for what you ask? --Too fast to see the unknown at night and safely react. I love when people say "but the speed limit was X. I was in the right". That's the limit not the recommendation. Not a required speed. You proved you were going too fast by the shock you felt at finding the other boaters so close. You were unaware and unsafe and just flat lucky YOU didn't kill someone. You wouldn't have been the only one to blame; but you would have been the one doing the killing. Don't agree?
Well let me ask in all seriousness: Did the kayakers almost hit YOU when THEY were going too fast? Did those little kids almost take YOUR life? -br

Easy fella...

My post was to make people aware of my experience. Yeah, it shook me up really bad and it could have been a terrible situation that would have made a incredible impact on several people.

What the hell are you trying to say? "Did the kayakers almost hit YOU when THEY were going too fast?"

Are we now suppose to forgo our own pleasures because there are idiots out there? I think not!

I dont have navigation on my boat, I have been on this lake for 20 years and have never seen a log, I have driven to this particular slough on which our house is located the entire time we have been coming to this lake (20 yrs), I was at least 200 yards from shore, I didnt see the kayakers until after I pulled back the throttle and the bow came down from the rise.

So, if any of you think your actions and decisions can prevent you ever getting into a unfavorable situation please pad a room and stay in your house.

I have never discounted that my discisions were 1/2 of this situation, however, I was in my legal right. That does not mean I that would have made me feel any better if the worst had happened. It means we should learn something from this situation. I hope we all do, and that was the purpose of my post.

 

[TerryMSU]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Hope your insurance is real good. You may dodge a criminal citation, but a civil citation has a different standard. All it takes is a jury who feels sorry for those kids ( if you had hit them) and you will be paying for the rest of your life.
TerryMSU

 

[lncoop]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

So has the conversation deteriorated yet?

 

[scrit9mm]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

So has the conversation deteriorated yet?

yes.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

I'm glad you posted it and thank you. It presents many complicated aspects of boating and shows how everything is situational. There is only one rule in boating; everything else is general advice that may or may not be the correct thing to do. The variety of strong but opposing opinions, some from experience and some from ignorance, shows there are no absolutes.

At least you didn't mention that you had had one beer because that would have gotted the tea-totallers all spun up, provoking the leisure drinkers to get on the defensive. Or that you went straight to the ramp and power-loaded your boat.

 

[boltonranger]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

"Are we now suppose to forgo our own pleasures because there are idiots out there? I think not!"

EDIT: No need to attack a fellow member ...

Were someone to have died; it would not matter how many times you've been on that piece of water.
It would not matter how many times you've seen or not seen a log in the water.
It would only matter that a kid was killed.
And you would do a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g to undo the tragedy if you could.

But at that point you won't be able to; you can only make adjustments now.
A word to the wise is sufficient.
Boat safe(r)

-br

 

[aspeck]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

I have been following this thread from the beginning and there are a lot of strong opinions here. Some have gotten very close to flaming other members. It has deteriorated and consider this a warning, if you want to keep the thread open, keep it civil and open-minded. Dogmatic opinions will cause this thread to be "sanitized."

 

[greenbush future]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Hope your insurance is real good. You may dodge a criminal citation, but a civil citation has a different standard. All it takes is a jury who feels sorry for those kids ( if you had hit them) and you will be paying for the rest of your life.
TerryMSU

Yep but civil suits goes both ways, and in this case it would be very easy to show that these unsupervised kids, after dark, with no lights, and no PFD'S' caused the entire situation. That is what civil suits can end up showing too. Then they will have to deal with all the laws they broke too. I am sure this situation was caused 100% by the kayakers. Boaters did nothing wrong or illegal and that is what would come out in any court of law.
It's very easy to see who was wrong and who would pay for this one if it would have ended poorly. Just glad no one was hurt by these kids who broke the law on so many levels endangering everyone on the lake. The parents of these poor kids would be paying for the rest of their lives, all because they dont know how to watch kids. That is what could happen too.

 

[TerryMSU]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Yep but civil suits goes both ways, and in this case it would be very easy to show that these unsupervised kids, after dark, with no lights, and no PFD'S' caused the entire situation. That is what civil suits can end up showing too. Then they will have to deal with all the laws they broke too. I am sure this situation was caused 100% by the kayakers. Boaters did nothing wrong or illegal and that is what would come out in any court of law.
It's very easy to see who was wrong and who would pay for this one if it would have ended poorly. Just glad no one was hurt by these kids who broke the law on so many levels endangering everyone on the lake. The parents of these poor kids would be paying for the rest of their lives, all because they dont know how to watch kids. That is what could happen too.

(The bold/underlining above was my addition.) I agree, but all to often, they will convienently forget that the parrents were the ones who screwed up, especially if a kid is stuck with major medical issues for the remainder of thier life, especially if the parents have shallow pockets (as often is the case with this sort of non-sense). You have far more confidence in the legal system than I do.

TerryMSU

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

A lawyer I know tells his clients, "You'd rather avoid a law suit than win one." Just like a colonoscopy, it so many ways, the law suit may come out fine but you still have to go through it.

I can tell you from experience (including a recreational boat wreck, at night, with 3 fatalities*) you do not want to be there, even if it does come out OK. because it doesn't, 100%.
i can also tell you from experience that it's easy to guess how a law case ought to come out, but there is no certainty. In a case like this one (had their been an injury) you have two jury questions that will not be answered until the whole trial is over--that's the problem. it's not a case (as sometimes happens, called summary judgment) where at the very beginning you can say, "I win under these facts; dismiss the case."

So what I'm saying is while discussing possible lawsuits is interesting (for some) what is more important is not to be in one in the first place.

BTW the 2 questions are: did driver operate safely for conditions (ie keep a proper lookout, including anticipate likely hazards)? and did the victim's contributory negligence relieve the driver of liability? (or in a comparative negligence state, by what percent?)


*I was not in the wreck itself but was involved in many ways with matters that followed, and know one of the families very well.

 

[scrit9mm]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Well said Cookin'

Heading back out for the first time since the occurrance. I will say that I will make different decisions which include going slower if we go out at night. One main reason is due to the expected increase in nightime over the limit driving with college football saturday night.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Heading back out for the first time since the occurrance. I will say that I will make different decisions which include going slower if we go out at night.

Hopefully others that have read this thread will follow your lead.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Well now that we are talking insurance and lawsuits...

Good boat insurance is pretty reasonable compared to other types...

And very good only cost a little more. I was amazed how little it costs to really raise the liability portion.

If you have anything to loose (assets) its silly not to have better than standard IMO....

 

[Oshkosh1]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Interesting thread...

I suppose because of things I've seen at night onboard ships all over the world while navigating through VERY congested waterways(straits of Malacca/Juan de Fuca/Hormuz etc...) my senses are heightened after sunset. We always joked at the "MoBoard"(gallows humour?) that the only REAL law at sea...at night...was the law of gross tonnage. He who's bigger wins.

If I'm in a kayak/canoe/rowboat/small craft...whatever at night I'd make d@mn sure I'm lit up like a Christmas tree and assuming the OTHER vessel, regardless of my/his/her adherence to the rules of the road, is larger & CBDR(Constant Bearing Decreasing Range...aka "imminent collision") and will not alter course.

Of course with that said...you can't avoid that which you don't see.

So...

Slow down(and that doesn't mean you need to idle)
Cut the chit chat...EVERYONE on your craft at night has been promoted to "lookout".
Ensure your lights are functional PRIOR to marine twilight...and use them
If in fog...USE YOUR HORN
PFD's are no longer "optional"

Don't be afraid to go out at night...as with everything else, navigating at night takes practice. Depth/distance/speed perception is no longer to be trusted as during the day. Use a chart. Be familiar with hazzards to navigation. KNOW YOUR SIGNAGE!! Nothing irritates me more about pleasure boaters than their ignorance/wanton disregard for bouys/shapes/lights.

If states required at least a written test to obtain a boating license...we'd all be safer.

 

[TerryMSU]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Well said Cookin'

Heading back out for the first time since the occurrance. I will say that I will make different decisions which include going slower if we go out at night. One main reason is due to the expected increase in nightime over the limit driving with college football saturday night.

Wise move.
TerryMSU

 

[lncoop]

Re: Almost took a life Saturday

Well now that we are talking insurance and lawsuits...

Good boat insurance is pretty reasonable compared to other types...

And very good only cost a little more. I was amazed how little it costs to really raise the liability portion.

If you have anything to loose (assets) its silly not to have better than standard IMO....

Agreed. I obtained umbrella coverage a couple years ago and was amazed at how little it added to my premium total, but what really amazed me was how under-insured I really was. I had comprehensive coverage, but we had to increase all my liability limits before I was even eligible for the umbrella. I highly recommend it, especially if you pull skiers, boarders, tubers, etc.