A video the Left does not want to see....

ebbtide176

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

hi i'm checking in again. :D <br /><br />plywoody, like you stated long ago, you'll be neverending in your ceaseless quest to enlighten us. i totally understand - and am abhorred. thanx but no thanx<br />we don't need to see your opinion on the atta file. we already have reports from other iraqi intel members having meetings with members of alqaida. why, why do you parrot this cripe over & over & over? geez man. you know by now if you spout it enough, i will come back to post... maybe you like me ;) <br /><br />and jt. you should remember those earlier posts right here can remind you that wmd was used by saddam, he had them, he told everyone he would use them at the time we were building on his borders. i'm sorry, but if you really want to get down to politics, i can't sway anyone's opinions. but if you want to talk about what wmd means and whether saddam had them, that's another whole ballgame. we know he had them, we still can see the affects on the kurds. all the intel since prior to the desert storm told us he was still working towards developing nuclear( one of the wmds) and our foreign intel srvcs believed he had them. so if you want to get particular, give us something to think of...<br /><br />hava gooden
 

rodbolt

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

mmmmmm EE let me see if I am understanding your last. its ok to use Napalm and airbust white Phosphouous in a city that most likly contains a large civilian populace? not like the residents had anyplace to run. maybe mayor nagin sent all the buss's there ?<br /> what I wish to know is did our itelligence agency supply the correct Data and was it used to fit policy or was policy created around the intelligence. thats all. most everyone based there opinions on the intel. if the intel was so flawed then we need to know to prevent more of the same.<br /> had I not have severed during the first gulf event and tried to keep abreast of the events following just in case my retirement got canceled, I prolly would have bought into the WMD thingy as well. but the fact remains a few artillry shells with some gas aint WMD. dangerous yes, WMD no. but the stone fact was most all the midlevel technical personell bailed out in the 91-97 time frame. the countries entire power grid could not sustain the requirements for WMD processing and research. lets face it if you dont have the manpower and resources to keep the electricity on the water running and the sewerage flowing its tough to develop a viable weapons program.<br /> a much larger concern will be the dust from the amount of DU rounds that have been used in the area. wanna bet on if our troops start having a few problems? remember the agent orange and the gulf war syndrome? how many years will the current vets have to fight the pentagon of the DU issue civillian casualties notwithstanding.<br />so I guess a DU round can be a WMD. just takes a year or two longer but the results will be the same.
 

jimonica

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

Front page of the St. Paul Pioneer Press, a conservative news paper, says, "Rewriting history? Bush, aides tinker, too". "Recent statements are distorting the factual record".<br /><br />Inside on page 13a headline reads, "White House appears to tinker with history".<br /><br />The aricle goes on to quote a July 2003 report, a CIA review panel found that agency analyst were subjected to "steady an heavy" requests from administration officials for evidence of links between Iraq and al-qaida, which created "significant pressure on the Intelligence Communtiy to find evidence that supported a connection".<br /><br />The aritcle continues: In his speech, Bush noted that "more than a hundred Democrats in the House and the Senate - who had access to the same intelligence - voted to support removing Saddam Hussein from power."<br /> This isn't true. <br /> The Congress didn't have access to the President's Daily Brief, a top-secret compendium of intelligence on the most pressing national security issues that was sent to the president every morning by former CIA Director George Tenet.<br /><br /> As for prewar intelligence on Iraq, senior administration officials had access to other information and sources that weren't available to lawmakers.<br /> Cheney and his aides visited the CIA and other intelligence agencies to view raw intelligence reports, received briefings and engaged in highly unusual give-take sessions with analysts.<br /> Moreover, officials in the White House and the Pentagon received information directly from the Iraqi National Congress, an exile group that circumvented U.S. intelligence agencies.<br /> The Iraqi National Congress information came from defectors who claimed Iraq was hiding chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs, had mobile biological-warfare facilities and was training Islamic radicals in assassinations, bombing and hijackings.<br /> The white House emphasized these claims in making its case for war, even though the defectors had shown fabrication or deception in lie-detector test or had been rejected as unreliable by U.S.intelligence professionals <br /> All of the exiles' claims turned out to be bogus or remain unproven.<br /><br />This article is from a conservative newspaper that consistantly endorses the Republican candidate.<br />You can read the full article at www.twincities.com
 

CJY

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

jimonica,<br /><br />Now you know W does not employ spin doctors! That was sarcasm by the way. We need a Graemlin for sarcasm. <br /><br />Let's say, for argument's sake every one was, to the best of their ablity telling the truth as they knew it. In the end, W pulled the trigger based on false intelligence(they never found WMD). It is possible he eliminated his countries WMD when ordered after 9/11. He just chose to keep inspectors out so he could remain the neighborhood bully. It's possible.<br /><br />On the other hand, lets say every one of them lied and knew it. Whose job is it to verify fact from fiction prior to pulling the trigger? Are you telling me that he should have listened to Hillary say he has them and base his decision on what the other party says? What a bunch of crap.<br /><br />Did he have them at a point in time, I think all agree that he did at one point. That does not mean he still had them. Hussein was not a stupid person. He had to know if he maintained them, his time in power was limited. He also knew if his neighbors found out that he no longer had them, his time would also be limited. He was walking a tightrope between allowing inspectors in to satisfy them, yet not reveal completely that he had nothing(his reason for kicking them out), in order to keep his neighbors at bay.
 

jtexas

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

not to be picky or anything, but if Sadam kicked the weapons inspectors out of Iraq, why did the U.S. have to warn them to leave before the invasion? USA Today 3/17/03 US Advises Weapons Inspectors to Leave Iraq <br /><br />History will show that Cheney bypassed the State Dept.'s Bureau of Intelligence and Research when he ordered all the raw intel reports sent directly to his own staff, hand picked those that supported his own opinions for presentation to the President without any analysis or investigation. Then ignored subsequent analyses indicating that they came from unreliable sources who were either known liars or didn't have access to the information.<br /><br />I think Nixon will have to share the nickname "Tricky ****"
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

"Tricky George"? NO! How about "Gestapo George" or 'George the Great'?...I vote for "George the Great".....George the Lionhearted"...."George the "Lord High Protector"?..What will "his"story record?....He still has time to finish it.....What will he do?.....Time will tell...Meanwhile the invasion from Mexico looms large...What to do? What to do?.....JK
 

POINTER94

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

But the video I saw showed Mad Albright and Sandy Burgler, and movie star war hero kerry, Rockefeller, Scream Dean, stating without reservation that Sadams regime posed a direct threat and would need to be dealt with. As Bush was in Texas, and their boy Billy was in charge, did he lie? He has to be a liar by your standard? The quote's are from prior to the Bush presidency. They were on national broadcasts stating that he had WMD. Not that he might have them or that he didn't have them, but that without any doubt he had WMD's. <br /><br />Now who was running our intellegence agencies the prior 6-7-8 years? Come on, who was it? Was he a liar? Did he spin the intellegence? His buy one get one free, co-president hillary in turn supported the invasion after 8 years of intellegence under her husbands regime. Did his policies involving the intellegence agencies hinder the collection of intel? Did cutting all the budgets of the intel agencies assist in collecting information? Did the previous administrations policy of creating walls to prevent sharing of intel across agencies assist? Why? What happened to the WMD that the UN was supposed to be supervising after the first gulf war? Where is it? Did a magic wizard wave his wand and make it disappear? I don't think so. Where did it go? If war is so devestating why did the loyal opposition vote so cavilierly? Wouldn't you double check your math before writing checks with other peoples lives and dollars? If we cut and run now will we look like conquering heros? liberators? Gutless cowards? Weak? Without the fortitude to finish a job? Provide a roadmap for terrorists to exploit our yellow underbelly?<br /><br />The democrat's are playing politics while our soldiers put their lives on the line. It should make every American violently ill. If their lies spewed across the liberal vehicles enbolden even one additional terrorist, which it has, how does this help the soldiers, Iraqi citizens, the middle east as a whole? Al Jezzera Harry Reid makes the papers almost weekly. Calling yourself a patriot while assisting the enemy just doesn't cut it in my world view.
 

jtexas

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

Pointless, pointer, since on Otober 7, 2004, President George Bush acknowleged that the stockpiles of weapons that he, Cheney and others had warned us about did not exist. So you'll not get any arguing from me over that. <br /><br />Did Rockefeller lie? Irrelevant. Did Clinton, Albright, Burgler, Dean lie? Irrelevant. If you're looking for someone to defend 'em, you'll have to look elsewhere. None of them were commander in chief in April 2003. Does it hurt my feelings for you to refer to any politician as a liar? Nope. This is not an emotional argument as far as I'm concerned, it's a rational observation.
 

PW2

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

"Scream Dean" was definitely on record against going to war. He was one of the few Dems that displayed any backbone in the beginning of this sorry mess.
 

jtexas

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

I thought the "tricky ****" comment was a pretty clever joke, didn't mean to start a round of name-calling, I'll retract it if anybody's offended by it. <br /><br />Might be helpful to clarify our perspectives, if you like, so we'll know who stands where. <br /><br />Here's mine:<br /><br />On the war:<br />There are good enough reasons for deposing Saddam apart from existence of WMD, the fact we attacked does not have to be justified to me. I'm a little uneasy about our use of chemical weapons in the attack, though.<br /><br />On the continued occupation of Iraq:<br />I support staying in until the job is done, e.g. Iraq has a functioning government, and continuing support for law enforcement & arm services training. A permanent military base there wouldn't hurt either. Be nice to have an ally in the region.<br /><br />On the democrats:<br />Don't care. Don't believe the demogoguery has any effect on terrorism. I'll consider any documentation or logical argument to the contrary. Don't expect Hilary to be a viable presidential candidate.<br /><br />On the administration:<br />There is an appearance here that information has been somehow mishandled, mismanaged, or misrepresented. That is significant. Regardless of anything the democrats say or do - those clowns don't influence my opinion. I want to know. <br /><br />On the president:<br />I voted for Mr. Bush, twice, but that doesn't mean his poots don't stink. I respect anyone's right to express any opinion, and expect the same. End of the day Mr. Bush is a politician, and politicians have been known to stretch a truth or two.<br /><br />On the republicans:<br />Sure hope they've got somebody other than Cheney or Rumsfeld ready for the next election.<br /><br />subject to change without notice
 

QC

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

Jtex,<br /><br />Nice summation of your positions. We're pretty close . . . You don't see a possible run by Dr. Rice?<br /><br />What's the deal with "our use of chemical weapons in the attack". Did I miss something? Never heard that one before . . . :confused:
 

jimonica

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

I think what pushed the dems over the edge was all the nuclear weapons talk. Everyone new Iraq had chemical WMD. But it was the nuclear WMD that got everyone to vote for war.<br /><br />Most of the video of dems WMD talk was in reference to chemical WMD. The few dems that did mention nuclear was in terms of not letting Sadaam get his hands on them or developing nucs 5 yrs or so down the road.<br /><br />It was all the aluminum tube, yellow cake and mushroom cloud talk that got the dems to vote for the war resolution. Now we find out it was all lies and the dems are to blamed for believing the administration? I'm hearing people say the dems should have done there homework a little better.<br />I guess that let the repubs off the hook.
 

QC

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

This is simply a language question, nothing else. Is it a lie to report what you believe to be true? Nobody needs to look past the question, a simple yes or no will suffice . . .<br /><br />Because I know this will be difficult, I will add one thing. I don't personally know if this Administration believed what they have told us.
 

jtexas

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

q/c, re: U.S. use of chemical weapons. here's the State Department's statement on it:<br /><br /> http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive_Index/Illegal_Weapons_in_Fallujah.html <br /><br />note the November 10 addition near the bottom of the statement.<br /><br />I'll just add that Italian TV did a news story on it with footage of civilians burned to the bone while their clothing was left intact. It's still just an allegation though at this stage.<br /><br />I expect the full story will come out eventually.<br /><br />BTW, "if you believe it, it's not a lie." -- George Costanza, Seinfeld, funny but true, IMHO.
 

QC

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

jtex,<br /><br />Your statement on the chemical thing is as if it is factual. Your link doesn't help me believe that it is. A little careless for a clear thinker such as yourself . . . BTW, I mean that as a compliment, may be a little backhanded, but clear thinking is a rarity, don't let it be compromised ;)
 

jimonica

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

"Is it a lie to report what you believe to be true?"<br /><br />Simple answer no.<br /><br />But, there is enough evidence to show that the Bush administration knew they were lying. Go back and read my post quoting the Pioneer Press.<br /><br />Back to your question. It looks like Clinton didn't lie after all. He thought a BJ didn't qualify as having sexual relations. Just like all these kids that take an abstinence pledge, they engage in oral sex because that doesn't count as sex. Therefore their abstinence pledge stays intact. Glad we got that settled!
 

jtexas

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

Q/C, thanks for calling that to my attention. The link is addressing reports of "illegal weapons", which I have no reason to doubt our government's denial. But they do acknowlege the use of chemical rounds. <br /><br />"Phosphorous shells are not outlawed. U.S. forces have used them very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes."<br /><br />"...U.S. forces used white phosphorous rounds to flush out enemy fighters..."<br /><br />"...Mark-77 firebombs, which have a similar effect to napalm, were used against enemy positions in 2003."<br /><br />All the news I could find from Western sources were just quoting the Italian news coverage; AP, CNN, et. al. haven't mentioned it yet. <br /><br />good one, jimonica, but I have to say, I thought Bill took too much grief over that lie to the press corp regarding his little indiscretion ... it's the duty of a southern gentleman (and I use that term loosely) to protect the reputation of a young lady. ;) But I'm afraid you're right about the example he set.
 

ebbtide176

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

jt, i'm appreciative of the info you post. it does help. altho i think you're forgetting that hindsight is 20/20. i don't think our administration has even been close to handling this fight as well as it can be done. and i don't give a rat's --- if it goes on GWB's shoulders or not. if i had a brother killed over there, then i understand.<br />what everyone has to remember is the thing i tried to mention before - its a global chess game, with human lives. whether we want to whine about that move is not as important as what we plan to do now. i think GWB had to act, and he dam sure showed our spirit by acting. i don't think he faked intel, and we can pore over the limited intel the news orgs tell us, but that is a pisspoor response to what we must face. we are a friggin country, not a tiny town. we can argue the decisions our politicians make, but i just can't believe that we all were duped into believing iraq wasn't the next place to take the fight against terrorism. geez man<br /><br />ok, if anyone wants to say GWB made the wrong decision, we have a problem. if you want to make a backseat call on his individual decisions i can hear the whine now. just remember we have armed forces out of our country representing us. and what P.O.'s me the most is this wholesale whining.<br />what does it take to remind you to put at least 90% behind your CIC and let the 10% disagreement go towards your opportunity to make a vote?<br /><br />no matter what anyone says, it still relies on briefs and news. we have briefs that show alqaida influx into iraq. we have briefs that show saddams claims to have wmd. we HAD briefs from the majority of our allies that saddam STILL had wmd. now we're complaining that we shouldn't have been there in the 1st place? <br /><br />all i'm seeing is people complaining about the loss of soldiers lives... doesn't anyone think they should give a little respect? <br /><br />what i'm seeing is americans feeling that the 2000+ soldiers that have died for iraq are not worth helping that country get out of the situation they're in. i don't care what the other members of the UN think.<br />that's it in a nutshell. its damn sad to think my fellow americans feel that way...
 

rodbolt

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm <br /> if true its rather terrible, some of the reports defined it as a shake and bake operation, the problem is falluga had a civilian populace of about 256,000 or so. most had no place to go and like the katrina victims no way to get there. so they got blasted as well.<br /> the pentagon keeps a tight lip on any errors in the area, but oneday like it or not the harder they try to hush it and smooth it over with euphimisms the more it will come back to bite the US in the future. <br /> the info on the use of the "napalm like" substance is a bit tougher to find. the biggest difference from the horrible stuff napalm is and MK-77 is napalm is mixed using gasoline and mk-77 is mixed using jet fuel. kinda like the diffrence in being shot in the forehead or in the back of the head.<br /> seems the pentagon is now admitting to the shake and bake ops in a metropolitan area. problem with shake and bake in a city that size is it gets rather hard to control. whiz bang weaponry is good but it does tend to miss fairly often, I was trained and qualified on a lot of ordanance,willie P was one, was also trained with some whiz bang stuff that regularly failed to either go whiz or bang. but we are not allowed to divulge much of the whizbangery failures. its bad publicity :) . ya outta have to splain a restrained missle firing false alarm that washses 2 SM2 missles in seawater while tied up in port :) :) . only cost the US taxpayer about 1.3 that day :) .<br /> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10064711/ <br /> like I say its hard to get clear information but if you read the statements its clear that a spokesman is bobbing and weaving and ducking and dodging. <br /> while not technically lying its rather misleading.
 

waterone1@aol.com

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Re: A video the Left does not want to see....

I only have one thing to say: time for our Republican leaders to grow some balls and take on these american hating,whinning scum that are ruining our great country. We're in Iraq, let's Win this War, then bring our boys home....with their heads held high. Yes, some of our brave soldiers will die, and yes some civilians will die...that is war. Don't let it be for nothing, at least let it be for a VICTORY.
 
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