A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

[jigngrub]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

jigngrub,

I HIGHLY recommend you speak with the MFG of GREAT STUFF foam like I DID and get their opinion about using their foam in the Marine environment for floatation purposes. They do NOT recommend it. I have NOT contacted them about the NEW BLACK aquatic foam but I doubt it is any different. If you want to use it go ahead but this issue has been bantered about here for a LONG time and the consensus is and will continue to be that this product has no place in boat restoration. If you continue to recommend it's usage you will find a LOT of iBoaters strongly disagreeeing with you unless you can get written confirmation from the MFG that they are in agreement with your opinions.

Have you spoken to the MFGs of pool noodles or blue or pink polystyrene foams to see if recommend using their product as floatation?... and what about empty plastic containers?

Of course the GF MFG won't recommend their product be used for floatation because of the liability and many variables on improper installation.

As I stated earlier in this thread, I wouldn't consider using mass quantities of GF in boat repair/restoration... but I wouldn't have a problem using 1 or 2 cans for a patch or something if I needed to.

I can see that the majority of the members that frequent this particular forum have tunnel vision/blinders on when it comes to this product, but that's ok... it only means there'll be more for me in the store if I should ever need it.

How do you paint foam under the deck of a boat??? Just curious here?

How do you install foam under a deck? Just drill a hole through the decking and pour/squirt it in?... I don't think so.

If you have access to install pourable or canned foam, you have access to paint it.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

How do you install foam under a deck? Just drill a hole through the decking and pour/squirt it in?... I don't think so.

That is EXACTLY how you do it, IF you KNOW what you're doing!!!!

 

[jigngrub]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

How do you install foam under a deck? Just drill a hole through the decking and pour/squirt it in?... I don't think so.

That is EXACTLY how you do it, IF you KNOW what you're doing!!!!

Pouring an Expanding foam in a confined area when you can't see what you're doing?... none for me thanks!

I'd rather install it before the decking goes in, lots easier and you can see what you're doing... and you don't have to worry about patching the holes in your decking.

 

[Cadwelder]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

Pouring an Expanding foam in a confined area when you can't see what you're doing?... none for me thanks!

I'd rather install it before the decking goes in, lots easier and you can see what you're doing... and you don't have to worry about patching the holes in your decking.

It's done all the time, like every boat . Putting in before the deck would really be a mess....

So your way....you would let it expand and then trim down flat? How do you paint the part between the hull and the foam?

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

Well at least NOW we know why you PAINT your foam. Any time you cut pourable foam you MUST seal it since you break the waterproof outer seal formed by the exothermic process. This is ESPECIALLY true with GREAT STUFF. With certain Pourable Foams it is NOT the case. And not having the deck in place will force you to have to cut and trim and WASTE a significant amount of foam. This topic has been discussed MANY times here on the Forum and the overwhelming consensus is to place the deck first and cut pour holes and relief holes to apply the foam. BUT you are free to do your restorations the way you see fit as long as it's safe. IMHO using Great Stuff Foam in a Boat in ANY capacity is NOT SAFE. MTBoatguys findings proves it to me. It does and will absorb water.

 

[bassmanhb]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

Pouring an Expanding foam in a confined area when you can't see what you're doing?... none for me thanks!

I'd rather install it before the decking goes in, lots easier and you can see what you're doing... and you don't have to worry about patching the holes in your decking.

hmmm,

then all the boat manufactures have been doing it wrong all these years by putting it in through holes in the deck and under the splash wells ?

look at this picture of my sea nymph.... see the small holes around the floor ? guess what they were used for ? yup putting in the expanding foam... same on the sides of the boat.....


bass

 

[jigngrub]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

It's done all the time, like every boat . Putting in before the deck would really be a mess....

So your way....you would let it expand and then trim down flat? How do you paint the part between the hull and the foam?

Hmmmmm, that's strange. When I removed my boat decking there weren't any holes in the decking and lots 'n lotsa expanding foam... and I bought my boat brand new back in '97!

I know y'all are talkin' about those ol' glass boats that they haven't learned how to frame a deck in yet and have to use foam for support and structural rigidity... but not everyone owns a glass boat, I know that may come as a shock to y'all... but it's true!

... and as far as painting the underside of the foam goes, you paint the bottom of the boat and then install your foam before the paint dries. The paint sticks to the foam and voila!!! Foam painted on the bottom side!

Any more questions?

 

[bassmanhb]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

jig,

take a closer look at my boat its a 1993 aluminum sea nymph sc 175 sidewinder.... not a fiberglass boat at all and not very old either.



bass

 

[BWT]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

Hate to say this, but although the pour in foam is expanding, it does NOT create any pressure on the confining walls of the cavity. Until it sets the foam is actually soft and pliable enough that a good blow through a plastic straw could create an impression (almost like the bubbles you used to blow in your chocolate milk as a kid but much smaller bubbles. It isn't until it sets (and stops expanding) that it becomes rigid. So, long story short, no concerns of it over-expanding and causing damage. As long as there is a hole to pour it into, there will be a hole for the soft (heh, heh) expanding foam to escape..

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

NO, we were talking about how you painted the foam between the bottom of the deck and the top of the stringer. And by the Way, it works exactly the same for TIN boats as it does for Glass boats. IF you had ever done one you would know that. You will have to CUT the top of the Foam OFF because it will NOT SELF LEVEL using your method. So how DO you get a level surface to lay your deck???

 

[jigngrub]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

NO, we were talking about how you painted the foam between the bottom of the deck and the top of the stringer. And by the Way, it works exactly the same for TIN boats as it does for Glass boats. IF you had ever done one you would know that. You will have to CUT the top of the Foam OFF because it will NOT SELF LEVEL using your method. So how DO you get a level surface to lay your deck???

The foam in my bilge does not support nor touch my deck in any way. My decking is fastened to and supported by 1 1/2" aluminum angles. My foam is not level, nor does it take up the whole bilge... BUT! There's enough foam in my bilge to completely float my boat without the plug in, the water won't even come up through the deck drain and get the carpet wet. I've fished all day without the plug in only to notice it when I take the boat out of the water on the trailer... and my bilge pump is manual only.

IF I ever had to use the GSF, I'd install it with my decking removed and paint it before reinstalling my decking.

I'm going to be removing my carpet before too long and installing vinyl instead and will take pics and post them here so you can see how my boat is setup.

I learned a long time ago that there's as many ways to do something as there is people to tell you how to do it.

I'll agree to disagree on the use of GSF.

 

[MichaelP]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

FWIW...My factory foam on the SS was poured through holes in the deck.

I tried to fill a wheel burrow wheel with great stuff and it all blew out. Guessing 12 holes @ 3/8" each was a bit much.

 

[jigngrub]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

I'm pretty sure that this is the method that was used to install the expanding foam in my boat before the decking was installed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIpHbdO1jE0&NR=1

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

Funny, I didn't see the GREAT STUFF label in that video

 

[Outback Jack]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

Well when I pulled the carpet up from my 1993 bowrider I found 34 of these 1-1/2 holes all over the deck and on the sides of the stringers and they were full to the top with expanded foam and the holes were not sealed. The carpet was just glued over top. The biggest thing to get the holes sealed after the pour. So I would say it was poured in from the factory and that will be the procedure I use to put my foam in.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

So, long story short, no concerns of it over-expanding and causing damage. As long as there is a hole to pour it into, there will be a hole for the soft (heh, heh) expanding foam to escape..

Thats not exactly true BWT .. If for some reason the foam is expanding and not venting through your pour hole you can cause serious damage. ( Ever hear a deck pop from over foaming and no venting BOOM ! )

You have to know what your doing when pouring foam under a deck or other confined spaces.

I'm pretty sure that this is the method that was used to install the expanding foam in my boat before the decking was installed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIpHbdO1jE0&NR=1

Its possible that they used a 2 part airless foam gun.. More then likely they just mixed some 2 part up and poured here and there.

Yes Not All boats are poured through little holes in the deck ( most the time 1 1/2"-2" holes ). Mainly the ones that were designed for structural support are poured.

Jig .. I'm thinking you lost aspect of what this particular thread was all about. Its about using improper foam on a scale that it was not intended for.

You yourself said you would never use GS for large applications .. only for small fill-ins or something to that affect ( though I am somewhat confused what you mean by " small fill spots " ).

Im sure there are some applications that you could use GS for on a boat .. not in the bilge area though. Seems too much work for me to paint..foam..paint.

We should be back on track in the thread now its been explained .. NO GS foam should be used for Floatation application .. Yes ?

YD.

 

[jigngrub]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

Well when I pulled the carpet up from my 1993 bowrider I found 34 of these 1-1/2 holes all over the deck and on the sides of the stringers and they were full to the top with expanded foam and the holes were not sealed. The carpet was just glued over top. The biggest thing to get the holes sealed after the pour. So I would say it was poured in from the factory and that will be the procedure I use to put my foam in.

Just curious, was your deck "glassed in" with these holes left in it?

Thats not exactly true BWT .. If for some reason the foam is expanding and not venting through your pour hole you can cause serious damage. ( Ever hear a deck pop from over foaming and no venting BOOM ! )

You have to know what your doing when pouring foam under a deck or other confined spaces.



Its possible that they used a 2 part airless foam gun.. More then likely they just mixed some 2 part up and poured here and there...The foam is installed inbetween the ribs of my boat in individual sections, I can't really see the Tracker boat factory taking the time to mix and pour these sections when a spray gun would be so much more efficient.

Yes Not All boats are poured through little holes in the deck ( most the time 1 1/2"-2" holes ). Mainly the ones that were designed for structural support are poured.

Jig .. I'm thinking you lost aspect of what this particular thread was all about. Its about using improper foam on a scale that it was not intended for... I just don't think it's fair to say "never use" GS when it can be used if installed properly, especially since they've come out with the new Pond and Stone formula that is water and UV resistant.

You yourself said you would never use GS for large applications .. only for small fill-ins or something to that affect ( though I am somewhat confused what you mean by " small fill spots " ).... I would use it if one of the sections of foam in my boat came loose or was damaged.

Im sure there are some applications that you could use GS for on a boat .. not in the bilge area though. Seems too much work for me to paint..foam..paint... I was being a little sarcastic about painting the bottom and then installing the foam, anyone that has used this product knows what a sticky gooey stuff it is and will bond to just about anything... if painted properly on top there shouldn't be any need to paint the bottom.

We should be back on track in the thread now its been explained .. NO GS foam should be used for Floatation application .. Yes ? ... still feel it's unfair to say no/never

YD.

... and you are correct about the expanding foam being able to cause damage YD.

I think the end of this vid was staged, but it does prove a point and is fairly amusing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAIY0I5GGw4&playnext=1&list=PL683CF1AC136D07EA


HEY!!!... here's an idea!

How about empty plastic bottles filled with GSF for floatation?... water won't be able to penetrate it! Might start a new floatation craze!

 

[Cadwelder]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

Just curious, was your deck "glassed in" with these holes left in it?



... and you are correct about the expanding foam being able to cause damage YD.

I think the end of this vid was staged, but it does prove a point and is fairly amusing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAIY0I5GGw4&playnext=1&list=PL683CF1AC136D07EA


HEY!!!... here's an idea!

How about empty plastic bottles filled with GSF for floatation?... water won't be able to penetrate it! Might start a new floatation craze!

I've that video before and I agree the end is staged. The two part is somthing I've used a great deal in restores and at work, it's the one thing I know very well. YD and you are correct that it will build some pressure, but I've never got it to explode like the video.

I did pour some in a soda bottle and then screwed the lid on quickly...it popped the cap off but just sprewed over the top and kept expanding. I tried the same thing in a glass jar and it just expanded the metal lid but didn't break the glass. So it DOES create some pressure for sure.

Now on to the boat application. Well you are correct that you can't see it under the deck, but if you know how the stuff works you allow for that. You know how the structure under you deck is made so you tilt the boat bow or stern (whichever way you need) so the foam will fill whatever section you're working on. You need to calculate the amount needed and no over pour it. You can always add more if you need to.

As far as you didn't see holes in your boat...yours may have been injected (like YD said). This can be done through very small openings with long tubes and it mixes as its injected in controled amounts (I've done this too and it's the best by far, but the average guy can't afford this equipment) Now as far as the Great Stuff brand...if you want to use it on your boat and go to all the painting as you described, then go right ahead, but it's not the correct way to add floatation foam to your boat.

Now, Oops posted in his "book" about using plastic wrap and laying it in the bottom and pouring the foam that way....this would help seal up the foam from water in the bottom of the hull and I like that idea pretty well. Never tried it yet, but I will.

So in closing, Jig....I'm not trying to offend you in anyway, just want to make sure others that read this thread know this is not a good method to add floatation to a boat.

CW

 

[BWT]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

Thats not exactly true BWT .. If for some reason the foam is expanding and not venting through your pour hole you can cause serious damage. ( Ever hear a deck pop from over foaming and no venting BOOM ! )

You have to know what your doing when pouring foam under a deck or other confined spaces.
YD.

I guess I probably should have qualified my comment with a little more detail. If I were relaying advice to someone on how to actually do this I certainly would have; but I didn't get the feeling that the tone of this thread was going in that direction. I somewhat assumed that the pour hole would be large enough to accommodate the pour while making sure that none of the sticky stuff could catch the sides and close up. And to be honest I wouldn't ever recommend doing this with only one hole LOL!! Absolutely correct that it needs to vent, if things get sealed off while still expanding the boat will suffer from some sever indigestion Although, it can be done with a single hole for a relatively small area, but carefully. Merely agreeing that pouring through a hole (or series of them) is perfectly safe and an acceptable method of going about this.

Also, one thing that has not been mentioned is that for larger pours, it should be done in batches rather than one large dump.. Most of us know that this stuff is exothermic and large batches can generate enough heat to cause some problems.

Sorry for any mis-understanding

 

[jigngrub]

Re: A small bit of advice...Great Foam...!!! ARGH!!!!.....

Now on to the boat application. Well you are correct that you can't see it under the deck, but if you know how the stuff works you allow for that. You know how the structure under you deck is made so you tilt the boat bow or stern (whichever way you need) so the foam will fill whatever section you're working on. You need to calculate the amount needed and no over pour it. You can always add more if you need to... I'm sure the foam in my boat was installed before the decking went down, and nearly positive that it was applied with a spray gun. My boat is a deep V and the foam is applied to the sides in between the ribs on about a 60 degree angle. It's installed in roughly a tear drop shape with the taper closest to the center beam. there's a 4" gap of hull in the foam between the 2 sides at the center beam for drainage.

As far as you didn't see holes in your boat...yours may have been injected (like YD said). This can be done through very small openings with long tubes and it mixes as its injected in controled amounts (I've done this too and it's the best by far, but the average guy can't afford this equipment) Now as far as the Great Stuff brand...if you want to use it on your boat and go to all the painting as you described, then go right ahead, but it's not the correct way to add floatation foam to your boat... I personally don't consider pool noodles or empty plastic bottles proper floatation, but I see a lot of it being used on this site and I get the feeling most consider it acceptable because no one says a word about it, but they'll jump on a GSF thread with both feet and lambaste the devil out of it. I don't say anything about the noodles or bottles because I don't want to dump on someones resto thread.
I personally would trust properly installed GSF more than noodles or plastic bottles... but that's probably just me.


So in closing, Jig....I'm not trying to offend you in anyway, just want to make sure others that read this thread know this is not a good method to add floatation to a boat.

CW

No offense taken in any way here... but if the members here are going to tout the "proper installation of boat floatation" shouldn't something be said about noodles and bottles and not just GSF?