A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

snapperbait

Vice Admiral
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Aug 20, 2002
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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Mattttt.. I applaud you for serving.. Thank you..<br /><br />Just one question Mattttt.. If the order came down from your superiors to do exactly what was done to these POW's, would you follow it? :confused:
 

Toad2001

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 22, 2003
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403
Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Just to make one point. From what I understand, many in the jails were not "POW's". They have been arrested for various violations, crimes, and yes lots were incarcerated because of the war. One interviewed who was beaten and was shown in the naked pictures had nothing to do with the Iraqi fighters. He was in the back of a cab as a passenger when he was picked up.<br />Wrong place, wrong time.<br />Problem is, although democracy is coming it will be a while before any of those locked up can have fair trials. <br /><br />The answer to snapperbaits ? should be "NO".
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

some of you make me sick. if you are not in the military or have never served, your comments don't even count.
I’ve never been President, so I guess I shouldn’t vote, either??? :confused:
 

SoulWinner

Commander
Joined
Apr 16, 2002
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2,423
Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

mattt,<br /><br />There is all this outrage over this. Someone took some stupid pictures.....wow. Where is the outrage over Ruby Ridge.......what about Waco Texas.....Elian GOnzales? I see you your point Matttt, but in a war...in any combat situation you are the loser. Your high and mighty principals are the invitation to defeat, victory is vicious. The only ones who don't know this are those who haven't had to fight for life.
 

Toad2001

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 22, 2003
Messages
403
Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Rabbit,<br /><br />I didn't read that too closely till you pointed it out. Thanks. I certainly don't agree with the statement "if you are not in the military or have never served, your comments don't even count."<br /><br />T
 

Andrew Leigh

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Jun 17, 2003
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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Hi,<br /><br />I am in agreement with JB. One can never condone such conduct irrespective of how many extenuating circumstances one may come up with....<br /><br />HOWEVER<br /><br />that is the theory. The difference between theory and practice is that in practice the theory seldom works.<br /><br />I am not condoning these actions but would like to give my experience as an military officer in the infantry core having fought in guerilla wars in two African countries.<br /><br />There is a strange group dynamic that exists in the army. The possibility of dying at any given moment brings on unique pressures and unique bonds of friendship. These pressure are often dealt with in differing ways, some drink to excess, some will take drugs, some will harden their hearts...each will find their own method of working through the stress. Find a release or potentially go to pieces. The bonds of friendship created will often never be broken, not even after many years of separation.<br /><br />Now for those who harden their hearts it becomes easier for them to justify their actions as being correct and within the new boundries they have unconciously set themselves, consequently they are more open to committing the acts in question.<br /><br />Another thought, imagine trying to stop the brains of a friend with a critical headwound from seeping out his shattered cranium and then to have him breathe his last whilst in your arms (real story). This situation brings on emotive forces that are very difficult to explain, the resulting surge of feelings can lead to a very different and often uncharacteristic behavioural patterns. One must never discount the effect of intense emotional stress on the decision making process.<br /><br />In my war experience I have seen many atrocities, committed on both sides. I have come to the conclusion that war pushes some over the edge far easier than others. I have seen softly spoken family men who on donning a uniform take on an entire different persona and become people one would not want to have around. I have seen the negative effect that authority has on some people turning them into tyrants. Consider those people already teetering on the edge when presented with the right circumstance would relish the opportunity to do certain things.<br /><br />I could write chapters on this but suffice to say it would be niave if any of us believed that any country could enter war and remain blameless. It does not make it right but one must consider all the dynamics before reaching some form of understanding. <br /><br />Finally with regard to interrogation. Accurate information gathered from one captive can often save many lives later. Without bringing pressure to bear on captives how on earth could they be persuaded to "spill the beans"?<br /><br />I don't have an answer for this complex issue but would honestly have to say that I have given orders for my men to resort to "unconventional means" in the hope that the information gathered would save the lives of my men. At the time I believed that this was militarily the correct course of action. Since my military days I have married and fathered children, my perspective on life has altered considerably and my level of compassion has increased dramatically. 20 years older and wiser and with my civilian hat on I would never consider repeating those actions, but would say that when faced with the life and death situation of war....I don't know, each sitution is unique and judged on it's unique merits. <br /><br />I must add that on each occasion I had to conciously suppress my "feelings" as far as what was possible in order to make a cold calculating decision that was in the best interests of the situation.<br /><br />Sobering thoughts....for me at least. I don't condone any actions (nor my own) but do understand why.<br /><br />Andrew
 

matthews_jim

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Nov 12, 2003
Messages
154
Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Look at the photo oddjob posted. Take a really good hard look. That is someone’s husband, father, brother, son, and/or friend. I do not believe the end justifies the means, but watch what you have to say. I don't have all the facts and what little I do know is basically from the liberal press that sees an opportunity to bash Bush. Those that aren't there and don't know are being judge, jury, and exclusionist. I'm not saying what was done is right, but like wise, I'm not saying it is wrong because I (we) don't have the facts.
 

PW2

Commander
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
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2,719
Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Yep, SW, you've got the Christian way nailed! It is not what you do, but whether you get caught! It is not the acts that are bad, but the photos that document them!<br /><br />The problem with this whole thing is that if our goal was to conquer Iraq, all this would not be nearly as shocking or troublesome.<br /><br />However, our stated goal is to liberate Iraq and turn them into some sort of democracy, which is an entirely different standard than to conquer. We need to win over the "hearts and minds" Does anyone really think that is still a remote possible outcome?? If it ever was?<br /><br />Especially when we turn over places like Fallujah to former Republican guard generals of the former regime for "security". Not that they don't know how to impose order--clearly they do--or to establish "security", but how is it different from what they had with Saddam??<br /><br />And one would hope that there are some in the military that would want to take pictures and get them out simply to stop these atrocities from happening. Clearly the military has known this was going on for some time--It has only been since the pictures have been published that it has attracted any attention, and hopefully, action.<br /><br />Congrats to those brave soldiers who saw fit to get these photos out!
 

Kiwi Phil

Commander
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Mattt25, you are spot on...... <br /><br />Cheers<br />Phillip
 

gaugeguy

Captain
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Jun 4, 2003
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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Originally posted by mattttt25:<br />some of you make me sick.
Are you Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men?<br /><br />One of the freedoms that you are upholding Matt is the freedom of speech and the right for everyone to voice their opinion. You are held to a higher standard, right?
 

tylerin

Commander
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Jul 25, 2003
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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

some of you make me sick. if you are not in the military or have never served, your comments don't even count. no matter what you think
I stay away from these posts, because my thoughts are really not open for debate, but thats the most ludicrous statement I think I've ever heard
 

Carphunter

Commander
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Aug 11, 2002
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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Of course the photo Oddjob posted makes us sick and full of rage. If it doesn't, then theres something wrong with you. :mad: Those directly responsible for that sort of activity should be executed, IMO. But does that mean we should burn and mutilate detainee's and POW's also? I hope not. This is something you learn in Grade school people. Just because little Jimmy wants to steal somebodys lunch money, doesn't mean you should do it.................right?<br />I'm all for and eye for an eye, but man, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Dead is dead. Kill the scum responsible for this activity, and be done with it.<br /><br />I do not know the details of what happened either, so it is very hard to comment, but if were not following the rules set in place for the treatment of detainee's or POW's, then someone should answer for it. Those rules are there for a reason. Personally, it sounds as though the media is blowing this out of proportion anyway.<br /><br />Yeah Tylerin, your 100% correct!
 

Bigfun

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
305
Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

MY. The point I was trying to make with the quote you referenced by SW. :) ;) Is, that combat,war and all the horrible things that happen will give you a differ'nt perspective and reaction. I agree with you right now about murder, rape, etc. but if I was over there I can not say how I whould react to pow's. <br /><br /> I wish the military could have kept this out of the media. Now this and other policys are going to cause more of our guys to be killed.<br /><br /> Censorship during war is a good thing, for the most part.
 

mellowyellow

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Jun 8, 2002
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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

for those interested in the facts of the case<br />rather than just shooting off at the mouth...<br />here is the actual army report transcript.<br /> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/ <br /><br />a small excerpt from the army's findings:<br /><br />"That between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320thMilitary Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF). The allegations of abuse were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX 26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence."
 

oddjob

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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

some of you make me sick. if you are not in the military or have never served, your comments don't even count. no matter what you think
I served, but not on the battlefield. So I cant speak in terms as I have. I can only speculate about it. <br /><br />I dont agree with the quote above. Its a self serving (your not worthy) statement. Textbook readiness does not make one a leader or an authority on war and leadership. I believe that the battlefield separates the difference between true leaders and non-leaders and their opinions.<br /><br />Having said that...everyone here has a right to his or her opinion on this public forum.
 

mellowyellow

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Jun 8, 2002
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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

footnotes:<br />most of detainees are criminal, not pow's or enemy<br />combatants.<br />this is not media spin, just read the army's own <br />internal report on the matter.<br />they are also investigating 14 murders in Iraq and<br />Afghanistan prisions. 1 soldier has already been<br />court martialed and discharged for shooting a<br />prisioner dead because hew was throwing rocks at<br />him.
 

popuptarget

Cadet
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Messages
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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Here are my two cents for what its worth. I am a SGT in the 4th ID. I got back from Tikrit, Iraq about a month ago. The difference I see in how we treat EPW's and the enemy is that an enemy is still shooting at me until I kill or capture him. Anything to achieve that goal is fair game. An EPW is a human that will be afforded all rights that are allowed under the Geneva Convention even if that same person does not believe in it. Why do you ask should I conduct myself this way? I am a soldier in the U.S.Army not a terrorist, mercenary, or thug. I am not a mindless killing machine despite what some of the general public think. I would have to say that knowing how the military works I am very hesitant to say that those people in uniform (read I am not calling them soldiers) were under orders to "strip some guys down and make them humiliated the best you know how. Oh yea takes some pictures while you are at to take home to your friends and family." That is not the Army I know. We have trained professionals in the Army that do interrogations. We do not leave it up to some Joe whose job it is to ensure the safety and security of the prisoner. <br /><br />Just another thought. Jessica Lynch and here fellow soldiers were under medical care when they were freed. That is how pros do business. The others that drag a corpse through the street are a walking bullet catcher.<br /> Popuptarget
 

mellowyellow

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Jun 8, 2002
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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

well said popup and thank you for your professional<br />service! I for one greatly appreciate it.<br />kind regards,<br />M.Y.
 

gaugeguy

Captain
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Jun 4, 2003
Messages
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Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Originally posted by popuptarget:<br />Just another thought. Jessica Lynch and here fellow soldiers were under medical care when they were freed. That is how pros do business. The others that drag a corpse through the street are a walking bullet catchers. <br /><br />Wasn't she raped by her captors? And If I do recall, the Arab press showed photos of JL's fellow soldiers with bullet wounds to the back of their heads, executed. Where is the public outcry?
 

Bigfun

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
305
Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Male guard having sex with a female prisoner. Thats the only incident in that report that troubles me. The rest are very minor abuses. I'm gonna go back and read the report better. I read one section detailing abuses. What did I miss?
 
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