A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

[JB]

It is eerie, but not very surprizing, how the actions in the Iraq prison look so much like the sort of "preparation for interrogation" that "POW Survival Training" included 50 years ago.<br /><br />The idea was (is?) to break the spirit and pride of the detainee/POW by the most humiliating experience that could be devised. The training was to prepare trainees to expect and successfully resist breaking down from such experiences.<br /><br />I considered such techniques inexusably fiendish then, and I do now. Back then it was the North Koreans and Chinese who used them. The idea that we would do so never occurred to me.<br /><br />But: That experience leaves me with questions and cynicism about what happened in Iraq.<br /><br />The allegations and the initiation of the investigation were released to the media on 1/12/04. Why is everyone so surprised? Why the allegations of "cover up"?<br /><br />I really doubt that the enlisted personnel who did this thought it up on their own. It appears too close to the same old script on intelligence gathering interrogation. I think they were following orders. But whose orders?? Military Intelligence, CIA or Standard Operating Procedure?<br /><br />Where does the "buck" stop? Harry Truman had a sign on his desk that said, "The buck stops here". GW, whether he knew about it or not, needs to publicly apologise to the Islamic world, strictly forbid such techniques, and see to it that anyone who violated policy or orders is punished appropriately and publicly. If policy or orders allowed it, they need to be changed and further apologies published. No scapegoats.<br /><br />The need to gather information with which to save American lives and protect our liberty is great, but it does not excuse sinking to such depths.<br /><br />In many cultures and in the hearts of many human dignity is more precious than life.

 

[gaugeguy]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

You also have to remember the Arab culture. Men are deeply shamed to be naked in the presence of females they are not married to. It looks like trying to "break their spirit" to get them to give up a little info to me. Is it torure, I don't think so. I think it is very humiliating to them and to the Arab world though.<br /><br />What is more disturbing is that 14 Iraqi's have died in US custody, 2 are already being classified as homicides, so that is gonna be a tough pill to swallow.<br /><br />Because we are trying to win "hearts and minds" quite a few military careers will be ruined over these photos. If we weren't, the CO would take the person that took the photos and read him the riot act, and it would be done with.<br /><br />Where is the Arab outrage over US non-combatants being burned, hacked, dragged through the streets and hung from bridges? Dang PC war

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

I believe GW is going to do just that JB (apologize)<br />source msnbc.com:<br />"White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the president will conduct two 10-minute interviews with the U.S.-sponsored Al-Hurra television network and the Arab network Al Arabiya."<br /><br />"This is an opportunity for the president to speak directly to the people in Arab nations and let them know that the images that we all have seen are shameless and unacceptable,” McClellan said.<br /><br />"These images do not represent what America stands for, nor do they represent the high standards of conduct that our military is committed to upholding,” he continued. “What occurred was wrong, and it will not be tolerated by America."

 

[Copespitter]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

I see nothing wrong with it. They tried to kill our troops. Their lucky their in one piece. <br />Most of the Iraqi's are ungrateful sub-human pieces of trash. <br />That whole country is one big Branch Dividian Waco compound.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

isn't that what is supposed to seperate us from<br />them????

 

[gaugeguy]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Originally posted by mellowyellow:<br />isn't that what is supposed to seperate us from<br />them????

We aren't hanging them from bridges, isn't that enough separation?<br /><br />Is GW apologizing going to make a difference in the Arab world, heck no. It will make some of us feel better though. <br /><br />Ask 10 americans if this is being blown out of proportion and 6-7 will say yes. Ask the same question to 10 arabs and 9 will say no.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

these acts are against the military code of conduct,<br />and thus these people have broken the law and will<br />most assuradely be court-martialed.<br />each service man and woman has sworn to uphold<br />this law and if they break it, for whatever reason,<br />they will have to pay the price plain and simple.

 

[gaugeguy]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Nope, code of conduct is for the conduct once you have become a prisoner. But I know what you mean. It may be under the UCMJ, most definitely under the Geneva Accords. It just goes back to the old argument that why are we the only ones who play by the rules? <br /><br />Basically they were minor infractions...humiliation? C'mon, they weren't threatened with death, beaten or physically tortured. But by the letter of the law, a crime was commited.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

The allegations and the initiation of the investigation were released to the media on 1/12/04. Why is everyone so surprised? Why the allegations of "cover up"?

The military’s investigation into these events started in Nov 2003. Mid-level management sent communications to their superiors questioning the ethics of what was happening. They were silenced.<br /><br />Without question, right up the chain of command, everyone from the ‘hands on’ private to the general in charge of the prison should be prosecuted and if found guilt, punished to max, then discharged without benefits. Furthermore, they should be subject to any civil claims filed in American courts by surviving Iraqi prisoners.<br /><br />Just as the decision to abstain from leveling the mosque in Fallujah has resulted in the needless loss of America soldier’s lives; the *****footin’ before world opinion that is now required of the President to deal with this mess will also mean somewhere, somehow, someone in an American uniform is going to die needlessly.<br /><br />There are a lot more pictures and video that were distributed on CD-ROM. The military has been trying to get them all back…not likely to happen, so expect more ‘shock ‘n awe’ from studios at the Iraqi prison.<br /><br />This is not the first time. In Vietnam, tossing prisoners from helicopters was not unusual. But then, a significant number of the in-country officers that were killed died from bullets that came from M-16’s.<br /><br />Does anyone really believe we are leaving Iraq in June…or that anything has really been resolved in that part of the world?

 

[samagee]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

This is why I say not to take prisoners. To much time and trouble these days. You have to many other things to worry about. Once you have them in your sight, kill them. Don't give them a chance to give up. They will just be released at some point and be right back at it.<br /><br />So where is the Islamic appology for letting things get out of control for decades? These Islamic extremeist are way out of line.<br /><br />It is the same stupid mentality toward all officials. "Well they are the military or the police. They get paid to get shot at."

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

there are investigating a few possible murders as<br />well GG. a few have already admitted to kicking,<br />punching, beating and electric shock torture.<br />also rape of a woman prisioner and a nasty act<br />I won't mention to a male prisioner...<br />I wish it was just some goofy pics. of naked<br />prisioners....

 

[18rabbit]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Perhaps one of the moderators can explain why this is: *****footing.<br /><br />For those that can’t see it, it is a word that means to move with stealth, caution, or without commitment .

 

[JB]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

That's why I made the comment about human dignity, GG. <br /><br />Think of rape. Why is that a capital crime? Because it kills the soul.<br /><br />These acts are worse than murder. They are murder of the spirit, particularly to the Arab culture.<br /><br />Those civilian detainees are not known to have committed any acts of violence against us. They were just that. . . detained for questioning. Even if they were actual POWs, captured in combat, civilized morals forbid such behavior.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

the software that runs the sight automatically<br />blocks certain words without regard to actual<br />meaning rabbit.

 

[mattttt25]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

it's plain wrong. anyone involved or knew about the acts, whether they are enlisted, officers, or civillians, should be punished severely. like someone said earlier, americans don't act that way, it's what separates us from others.

 

[Carphunter]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

We can sit here forever and wait for an apology from the Islamic community as to how those US non-combatants were treated. That doesn't mean we should stoop to their level. <br />We need to show these people that we practice what we preach, not only with our words, but with our actions.<br />I show no sympathy for these Iraqi extremists, but how do you think were gonna sell a peaceful Democracy in that Country if this sort of thing is happening.<br /><br />Shoot to kill, but treat the POW's as they should be treated.

 

[gaugeguy]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Yeah, I know about the deaths, and I heard about an act of sodomy and I don't condone it, heck even the photos, it is wrong--no doubt about it. This is just the stuff that is leaking out. We train people to conduct interrogations and some nasty stuff goes on, and when we think that our hands may get too dirty, we send the prisoners to countries like Pakistan and Egypt to have them really worked over. <br /><br />Yes they should be punished, I totally agree. But it sounds like it is gonna be a witch hunt to me and we are going to go the extra mile to show our arab "friends" that we don't condone this sort of thing. It just makes me mad that we are the only ones who play by the rules.

 

[Bigfun]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

My sympathy is for only the service people involved. Was it wrong? yep. But is being blown way out of proportion. Real easy to sit here and act horrified when your not the ones being shot and blown up by these creeps. I'm willing to cut our troops alot of slack in how they treat their prisoners.

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

In WWII the Gurkha tribe of Nepal fought for the British. The Gurkha have a reputation for being the meanest, nasties fighters on the planet. There are many accounts of Gurkha soldiers unsheathing their knifes and making a charge on fortified enemy trenches, wherein the enemy would throw down their weapon and run for their lives. OK, the enemy would drop rifles and run from some guys with knives....... Says a little something about the Gurkha doesn't it?? They deserved the reputation they earned. Maybe if America could figure out that you don't win a fist fight by giving the other guy flowers, we could gain the respect of the world, and no one would dare try to unleash terror on ANY American on ANY soil around the globe.

 

[JoeW]

Re: A few thoughts about the latest scandal.

Violence should always be the absolute last resort that should ever be considered between people of differing opinions or behaviors. I hope that we can all agree with that. War represents the worst in human nature. The atrocities that we've witnessed are nothing new. What is relatively new is that we've had the ability to witness them via our media. This has increased our sensitivity to such things. I can tell you from personal experience that there is no greater pacifist than a soldier or sailor because they witness these things first hand. <br /><br />This is not a question of whether it is okay for us to do this or for them to do that. By the time violence breaks out we've already gone way beyond that point. The focus on atrocities conducted by this side or that side after war breaks out is too little, too late. <br /><br />The real question becomes for what ideals should we be willing to resort to such violence? For what reasons is it okay to kill?<br /><br />On the surface it may seem that there are no such ideals. IMHO we have become so complacent in our American culture that we take our own rights and privileges for granted. We believe that they are so basic to human existance that considering life without them is as difficult as considering life living on another planet. We make the mistake of believing that everyone makes decisions based on the same basic information and beliefs in the same basic tenets that we as Americans all share. Yes, I do believe we all agree on some very basic tenets like "war is bad" and "life is precious". So, the idea of some other culture actually threatening those basic beliefs or tenets becomes absurd to us. <br /><br />That doesn't mean that such threats don't exist. It just means that we inherently have a difficult time seeing or believing in them. So, killing for them becomes absurd. How could anyone in a foreign land, especially one half way around the world threaten my right to life, liberty and my pursuit of happiness? It does seem absurd. One truth that I have learned in my life is that I have been guilty of such assumptions. I once believed that everyone in the world shared the same basic belief in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Ironically, it was my tour in the Army and to foreign lands that showed me the error in that belief. Although most do share that belief, many do not. How many of us remember a time even in this country when such rights could be dictated simply by the color of one's skin?<br /><br />Perhaps our venture into Iraq was a mistake. I honestly don't know. I refuse to believe that a fellow American of any political persuasion would knowingly lead his countrymen to their deaths for less than honorable reasons. That may be my error, but I don't belief anyone has enough information right now to determine this. <br /><br />I guess my point behind all of this rambling is that focusing on the atrocities of war is futile. War, by it's very nature is an atrocity.