2012 VP 300 C-A Exhaust manifolds getting too hot - DTC 441 & 442

[Donald0039]

So I tested this engine on muffs a few months ago. It did not get any red triangle alarms. But cannot remember how long I ran it. Could water pressure from a garden hose make up for a marginal sea water pump?

 

[Lou C]

Yes it could
I did see those thermostats and I bet it is because for a cat converter to work it must maintain a certain temperature, too cold and it won’t do what it is supposed to do.
An unregulated (full water flow) exhaust elbow is going to run between 100-135* at least in my experience with the old Volvo style exhaust. That’s probably too cool for Cats to work so the thermostats are there to restrict cooling water to keep the temps where they need to be.
All this complexity is why I myself would never own one of these. I think a 600* heat generator in the bilge of a fiberglass boat is a BAD IDEA….because it’s dependent on that rubber impeller & those thermostats to not melt down. All forced on us by unelected bureaucrats…remember that next time you vote.

 

[Donald0039]

Well it is what it is with respect to catalytic converters. I will go down do the boat with an IR thermometer and a new raw water pump and verify the cooling system to determine for sure if a full system or not.

 

[Lou C]

Home | iBoats

Since 1998, iboats is the most trusted water lifestyle online store for boat parts and accessories, boats for sale, and forums. Enjoy great priced products with fast shipping.

www.volvopentastore.com

Found this, it appears that it is a full closed cooling system, the return from the manifolds back to the H/E is via an adapter on the back side of the manifold where you can't see it. Elbows are raw water cooled.

Home | iBoats

Since 1998, iboats is the most trusted water lifestyle online store for boat parts and accessories, boats for sale, and forums. Enjoy great priced products with fast shipping.

www.volvopentastore.com

The raw water flow to the elbows is regulated by this thermostatic system, presumably to keep the cat converter hot enough to do what it is supposed to do.
The whole thing is about 3x as complex as what they used before the EPA got involved with engine design. It is amazing to me that they forced this on inboards but gave outboards a pass.
Mercruiser is no better. Hoses and plastic fittings everywhere.
So if the 'stats have to be updated, that could explain the issue you were having.

 

[Donald0039]

I was remembering that I recently had two mechanics work on the shift control and shift cable. One was not very good. I found the power to the fuel pump unplugged. So I was thinking maybe the engine was turned over enough to ruin the raw water pump. Maybe even briefly started.

 

[muc]

That's where you buy the manuals, I used this one which thought had parts breakdown
https://www.volvopentashop.com/en-US/ExternalRedirect/CountryRedirect?countryCode=US

I think we both end up at the same page.
Volvo's new EPC seems to have a few glitchs. Sometimes I will get the page I posted, sometimes I need to refreash the main page to find it. Also noted that according to this EPC, if you want to buy an TPS, you must purchase the throttlebody complete? Got to belive thats a glitch. Sure hope dealers have a better EPC to use.

 

[muc]

VP only does half systems

not sure that's true.

 

[muc]

Yes it could
I did see those thermostats and I bet it is because for a cat converter to work it must maintain a certain temperature, too cold and it won’t do what it is supposed to do.
An unregulated (full water flow) exhaust elbow is going to run between 100-135* at least in my experience with the old Volvo style exhaust. That’s probably too cool for Cats to work so the thermostats are there to restrict cooling water to keep the temps where they need to be.
All this complexity is why I myself would never own one of these. I think a 600* heat generator in the bilge of a fiberglass boat is a BAD IDEA….because it’s dependent on that rubber impeller & those thermostats to not melt down. All forced on us by unelected bureaucrats…remember that next time you vote.

Yes @Lou C is pretty much correct with the temperature needs of a catalyst. In the first years of cats. Volvo went with thermostats to control temps, MerCruiser used poppet valves. I thought at the time thermostats would be a more precise method. Turns out they are, but also have some issues. Volvo is now using poppet valves on their newest product.


I also agree with "All forced on us by unelected bureaucrats…remember that next time you vote.". Yes CO deaths have dropped and the air and water are cleaner due to cats. If those bureaucrats hadn’t done anything we would probably still have 2 cycle outboards that spit out 1 pint of unburned fuel for every gallon they burned.
I think it might be good to remember that these are leisure boats that most people really don’t need. If clean water and air costs a little bit more ---- yes I think I’ll vote for that!

 

[muc]

Was the boat used in salt or fresh water? If in salt being 10 years old it would for sure be due for at least elbows if not manifolds as well…

That will probably depend on if the OP is doing the required maintenance and replacing the exhaust manifold anodes as needed.

 

[Lou C]

not sure that's true.

After examining those diagrams, you can see that there are feed hoses (part # 31) from the engine thermostat housing to the manifold and return hoses (part #17) back to the H/E. So that looks like a full system to me.

Home | iBoats

Since 1998, iboats is the most trusted water lifestyle online store for boat parts and accessories, boats for sale, and forums. Enjoy great priced products with fast shipping.

www.volvopentastore.com

 

[Lou C]

Yes @Lou C is pretty much correct with the temperature needs of a catalyst. In the first years of cats. Volvo went with thermostats to control temps, MerCruiser used poppet valves. I thought at the time thermostats would be a more precise method. Turns out they are, but also have some issues. Volvo is now using poppet valves on their newest product.


I also agree with "All forced on us by unelected bureaucrats…remember that next time you vote.". Yes CO deaths have dropped and the air and water are cleaner due to cats. If those bureaucrats hadn’t done anything we would probably still have 2 cycle outboards that spit out 1 pint of unburned fuel for every gallon they burned.
I think it might be good to remember that these are leisure boats that most people really don’t need. If clean water and air costs a little bit more ---- yes I think I’ll vote for that!

safety & health involve more than just one thing....yes clean air is a good thing...I am old enough to recall the days before auto engines had any emission controls and LA was under smog alerts all the time...
however, think about how dangerous it can be, to have a raw water flow failure on an inboard....if your raw water cooling is disrupted, your rubber exhaust hoses can burn, which can allow water to flood into the bilge...now...add a 650-700* heat generator on top of this system, and imagine what could happen. So now you've got an overheated engine AND your boat is taking on water...and many mass market boats...come with one piteful 500 gph bilge pump!
The day one of my cooling hoses popped off the P/S cooler and simultaneously overheated the engine and flooded the bilge with sea water up to the engine pulleys was the day, I decided I didn't want another inboard!
While outboards are very expensive, by comparison to these abominations, their cooling sytems are VERY simple, and not prone to these potentially dangerous situations.
So what we see is that Volvo, has gone from a cooling system (open style) that had maybe 5 hoses total, one thermostat, those system ran from 100* at idle to approx 135* after coming off plane...to this....
Remember this:
cat converters came on line approx 1975 in autos in the USA. They were designed for open air exhaust so that the great heat generated could be safely dissapated, and were not designed with wet exhaust in mind. Even so, they had to have heat shields to keep them from both setting the carpet/insulation above the floor pan on fire and also to prevent starting brush fires!
So did anyone think about this before forcing this on engines in a closed engine box, in a fiberglass boat that depends on cooling water to keep it from melting down?
1) closed engine box--no or little air flow
2) fiberglass boat--flammable as we all know
3) depends on cooling water--raw water impellers are prone to failure if not replaced on time and overheats can cause flooding of the bilge

that's 3 strikes out in the common sense world series.

 

[muc]

@Donald0039
I recommend that you.

Volvo lists this engine as never being registered. Suggest you contact your local dealer and get this registered in your name. It's possible this engine is subject to factory recalls and/or updates. Because it was never registered nobody would have been notified of them.

DTCs 441and 442 while not listed in the workshop manual for your engine, refer to a “stage 2” exhaust manifold overheat. This is a very serious overheat that can damage the catalyst. You should stop operating the motor until this is repaired. After repair you should run the catalyst health with the scan tool.

I understand part your problem is that there isn’t a lot of good info on troubleshooting this issue. The service manuals that are available to consumers don’t cover the theory on how this system works. Many manufactures have been moving the theory of operation (how the system works) to manuals that are only available to dealership personnel that attend the factory school. In this case that information is in the “Design and Function – Gasoline Catalyst Engines” part number 47711313. As near as I can tell this manual isn’t available for purchase.

Your symptoms (and my past experience) point to the thermostats not allowing cooling water out of the manifolds. Having both plug up at the same time is rare but not unheard of. Suggest that you remove, disassemble and inspect them. They should start to open and allow water out of the manifold at 120° they should be fully open at 140°. Just be sure to lube the O-ring and torque the 2 bolts to 84-96 in. lbs. INCH pounds. When you reinstall.



And now for another rant: Google “right to repair” and find out where the candidate and the party they are affiliated with stand on this issue. Use this info to help make the decision who to vote for this November.

 

[muc]

Hi Lou, I’m sometimes a little leery to engage with someone who writes with such passion.

Abominations? As in “a thing that causes disgust or hatred” or “a feeling of hatred” wow tell me how you really feel.

But sometimes people post opinions that don’t quite match up with reality. Kind of like when someone posted how much cheaper it was to own an outboard vs an I/O.

Maybe I can address some of your concerns.

1st, safety, Yes I can understand your feelings when a hose that someone didn’t get the hose clamp positioned and/or tightened properly came loose. But if you would have been operating one of these new “abominations” (sorry but I couldn’t resist) in less than 30 seconds you would have been alerted to the problem. Probably quick enough that the head gaskets and rubber hoses wouldn’t need replacement. And that 500 gph, don’t get me started. If you saw the real world numbers once you add a couple of feet of head pressure and the friction created with the cheap convoluted hose, you would think about putting something better in there.

When C.A.R.B. first started looking at catalyst equipped boats they wanted it to apply to I/Os and O/Bs. But the marine industry pushed back due to safety and cost issues. After a few years of studies it was determined that due to, then current technology, I/Os would be the best place to start. Mainly because it could be done safely. This is why water pressure sensors and exhaust temp sensors started showing up in the years before catalysts did, the manufacture’s knew it was coming. There are systems to keep you safe with that catalyst onboard. So yes, this has been thought about and now a new boat is safer than the older models. Yes they are more expensive, but they are cleaner and safer.

Impellers get a bad rap. In my 30 years servicing boats, I’ve seen VERY few fail that had been maintained and not abused. But like I’ve already said, modern engines have sensors to alert the operator way before any damage occurred.



I think that many times, when people compare modern I/Os to O/Bs they read about the problems with modern I/Os and think about O/Bs of the 80s and 90s. A modern O/B of comparable HP to an I/O is anything but VERY simple. Have you checked where the manifold housing water strainer or evaporative cooler is located on a 275hp outboard? They are mounted to the adapter plate. Flat rate is 8.4 hrs to do an adapter plate. Not many techs can beat that time. Yes there are a lot more hoses on a modern I/O but a lot of that is hidden on a modern O/B. When I look at a water flow diagram I count 11 lines with arrows going in and out of that adapter plate. Yes the O/B traded a bunch of (easy to replace) hoses for cast water passages in a part that you have to remove the powerhead to inspect and/or service.

I don’t post this to try and change your mind, I just want other readers to see there are 2 sides to every debate.



Common sense only works if you know the facts. An uninformed “gut feeling” is something I try to keep to myself.

 

[Donald0039]

@Donald0039
I recommend that you.

Volvo lists this engine as never being registered. Suggest you contact your local dealer and get this registered in your name. It's possible this engine is subject to factory recalls and/or updates. Because it was never registered nobody would have been notified of them.

DTCs 441and 442 while not listed in the workshop manual for your engine, refer to a “stage 2” exhaust manifold overheat. This is a very serious overheat that can damage the catalyst. You should stop operating the motor until this is repaired. After repair you should run the catalyst health with the scan tool.

I understand part your problem is that there isn’t a lot of good info on troubleshooting this issue. The service manuals that are available to consumers don’t cover the theory on how this system works. Many manufactures have been moving the theory of operation (how the system works) to manuals that are only available to dealership personnel that attend the factory school. In this case that information is in the “Design and Function – Gasoline Catalyst Engines” part number 47711313. As near as I can tell this manual isn’t available for purchase.

Your symptoms (and my past experience) point to the thermostats not allowing cooling water out of the manifolds. Having both plug up at the same time is rare but not unheard of. Suggest that you remove, disassemble and inspect them. They should start to open and allow water out of the manifold at 120° they should be fully open at 140°. Just be sure to lube the O-ring and torque the 2 bolts to 84-96 in. lbs. INCH pounds. When you reinstall.



And now for another rant: Google “right to repair” and find out where the candidate and the party they are affiliated with stand on this issue. Use this info to help make the decision who to vote for this November.

OK - I think it's slightly more complicated. I am not running the boat except to test it. Then read the codes.

Pulled raw pump. Looked fine. Blades very flexible and no damage.

So the build sheet from this 2011 Chaparral boat says the engine is a

5.7GiC-300-J​

Serial number #A127622.

The engine in the boat is a V8-300-C-A. Serial A254685.

I think the engine was replaced in 2012 or a little later under warranty with a current model engine. But I think they installed a long block and reused manifolds and other parts from the 2011 engine. The heat exchanger is red in color which is the color of VP engines prior to 2012. I think VP had major engine changes from 2011 to 2012. I am piecing this together from what I have found out. So the boat has run like this for many years without problems.

Does anyone know if the DTC 441/442 are really the exhaust manifold and there are different codes for the risers? There are sensors on both the riser and exhaust manifold on each side. Or is 441/442 a "exhaust overheat" and could be riser or exhaust manifold.

Overflow had about 1/2" of coolant, that should be enough to keep the system filled.

 

[Donald0039]

Ten minutes is not enough time to overheat the motor but is enough if insufficient water is going thru. Check the raw water impeller

Raw water impeller looked fine. Blades undamaged and flexible.

 

[alldodge]

Raw water impeller looked fine. Blades undamaged and flexible.

Doesn't matter, my comment remains. Water pump and impeller can be it excellent condition, and it will take more then 10 minutes to overheat motor, and lest then that to overheat exhaust

There is a problem with water flow IMO

 

[Donald0039]

Doesn't matter, my comment remains. Water pump and impeller can be it excellent condition, and it will take more then 10 minutes to overheat motor, and lest then that to overheat exhaust

There is a problem with water flow IMO

But which sea water or coolant?
The pump running the closed system is your normal water pump similar to a car, all metal. It can leak but cannot really stop pumping if there is coolant to pump.

 

[Scott Danforth]

But which sea water or coolant?
The pump running the closed system is your normal water pump similar to a car, all metal. It can leak but cannot really stop pumping if there is coolant to pump.

Almost NEVER the coolant circulation pump. Spend $30 and install a new impeller

 

[Donald0039]

I have a box with new impeller but the old one was in such good shape I decided not to replace. I had the impeller out in my hand. Looked for cracked rubber, damaged rubber, flexible. Looked as good as my new one.

 

[Donald0039]

I am thinking that all the black engine is the 2012 engine and the red is the 2011. Almost everything is black including exhaust manifolds and risers. Only the heat exchanger and sea water pump are red.
So one thought is that the oil cooler which is inline from outdrive to sea water pump could be clogged?
I could attach a garden hose to the flush adapter and that is past the oil cooler. But I still think a garden hose with it's water pressure could mask something half clogged in the sea water side.

What to look at next?