1996 Four Winns Sundowner with 5.0 Cobra engine and drive

[Lou C]

The o rings go on the driveshaft in the 2 grooves.

 

[Horigan]

If the O-rings are about an inch (3 cm) in diameter, they go on the grooves on the input shaft. Lube with motor oil.
There should be three additional smaller O-rings. Two for the drain hole and the middle hole plugs, and a slightly larger one for the dipstick.
You must fill the leg from the bottom until oil comes out the middle hole next to the shifter mechanism. That middle hole location sets the oil level.

 

[Lpgc]

The O rings are around an inch / 3cm diameter but the ones already on the input shaft look wider diameter... unless they stretch to fit in the grooves on the input shaft?



Been getting the transom swivel and leg ready for refitting, re-greased the universal joints using Morris Lubricants K323 blue grease, used the thicker Johnson/Evinrude blue grease on the mating area between the transom swivel and leg and on the odd shaped water inlet seal... Hope that's all correct?

 

[Lou C]

To hold that odd shaped oring for the water passage in place I like to coat the groove with marine grease & that holds it in place while you install the drive

 

[Lpgc]

To hold that odd shaped oring for the water passage in place I like to coat the groove with marine grease & that holds it in place while you install the drive

Thanks, I edited my post to include some pics and more info, posts crossed. I did coat the water passage groove and gasket with the triple guard grease... I remembered your advice from earlier in the thread ;-) I thought you also said coat the entire leg to transom swivel mating area?

I know to put triple guard on the splines.

Should I also put some triple guard on the leg where it meets the bellows?

Edit - The O rings do fit the grooves. When fitted the rubber looks as thick as the old ones (they looked a bit thicker before stretched over the shaft).

I put some triple guard on the whole shaft including the O rings. Also put some on the area of the leg that mates to the bellows, hope that's correct...

New O rings fitted.


The next part is where I risk pulling my back lifting the drive onto the transom swivel...

 

[Lou C]

Ok glad you added that:
1 yes coat mating surfaces of drive & pivot housing and where the bearing carrier fits into the bellows with triple guard
2) however on the shaft don’t let it get in the grooves that the orings fit in, that can keep the shaft from sliding into the gimble bearing. Use motor oil on the orings and triple guard on the splines. So you might want to slide the orings out of the grooves & clean em out & just lube with motor oil.
That’s what I’ve always done and I have no problems getting it off & on. 15+ years of outdrive maintenance in salt water….

 

[Lpgc]

Ok glad you added that:
1 yes coat mating surfaces of drive & pivot housing and where the bearing carrier fits into the bellows with triple guard
2) however on the shaft don’t let it get in the grooves that the orings fit in, that can keep the shaft from sliding into the gimble bearing. Use motor oil on the orings and triple guard on the splines. So you might want to slide the orings out of the grooves & clean em out & just lube with motor oil.
That’s what I’ve always done and I have no problems getting it off & on. 15+ years of outdrive maintenance in salt water….

Thanks, I got the drive fitted but it did seem more difficult than last time I test fitted it after cleaning everything up. I may have made a mistake though because I didn't wait for your answer, fitted it with triple guard over the O rings... maybe that was why I also struggled a bit to get the drive to go in the last half inch when it was already on the 6 studs?

What do the O rings seal? I can understand if they act as a grease seal for the gimble bearing but the bellows seal against water ingress?

I adjusted the shift linkage so it would most easily slot into the drive shift linkage with the helm gear lever and drive both in neutral... Is that the correct way to adjust it?



Seems I got some grease on my phone camera lens lol.

With just one of the rams attached I was able to lift the leg to attach the other ram, there was quite a lot of resistance (from the attached ram)... is that normal or should I not have been able to move the leg with one ram attached if the hydraulic system is all good? I didn't notice if the free ram moved when the attached ram moved (I could understand if the other ram moved in the opposite direction).

 

[Lou C]

You know I'm not really sure why they have those orings there but I guess that it keeps the driveshaft from seizing to the gimble bearing if water gets in or if the owner doesn't do maintenance.
As far as the trim rams, I just rebuilt mine (after 35 years!) not a hard job, as long as you can get that cap with the 4 holes in it off. What you saw with the ram is probably normal. Check the fluid level in the reservoir and add tilt n trim fluid if needed.
Shift linkage adjustment, I can't say, yours is just like a Volvo SX, I only have experience with the dog clutch Cobra which uses a totally different shift system.

 

[Lpgc]

Thanks Lou.

I pumped the oil out of the engine today, main reason being I wasn't sure how much I'd put in it because I part filled it before fitting the engine then ran the oil pump with the oil pressure sender disconnected and pumped some oil onto the ground in the yard. I removed 9 British pints (5.4 US quarts) before just pumping air. When I'd removed 3 pints the oil was at the top of the hashed 'safe' area on the dipstick. I nearly decided to leave it when it was at the top of the hashed safe area but then wondered how much oil might be left in and decided I needed to know...

From empty how much oil should the engine take to fill to the correct level?

Everyone seems to recommend straight 30 grade (30W) oil because the engine has a flat hydarulic cam. I'm unsure if the 30W should be low detergent? Do I need to add zinc etc?

 

[Lou C]

Well the flat tappet cam issues it's more an issue with break in on a new engine or a high performance engine. With a normal performance engine, already broken in, I don't think it's a big deal. The straight 30 recommendation is from years ago. You can use that, straight 40, or 20/50, or Merc's 25/40. Just not automotive 5/30 or 10/30 it will thin out.
As far as Zinc, it's been reduced due to concerns with cat converters. Diesel oil used to have like 1700 ppm of it, but is now down to like 900 ppm or so. I have done several oil analyses with marine oils and had very good results with the Mercruiser 25/50 syn blend oil, it has about 1300 ppm of zinc, the highest I have seen recently. My old Chevy has roller tappets though so it doesn't really matter.
Can't say how much the Ford takes exactly but I'd guess 5 US qts with the filter.

 

[Lpgc]

Well the flat tappet cam issues it's more an issue with break in on a new engine or a high performance engine. With a normal performance engine, already broken in, I don't think it's a big deal. The straight 30 recommendation is from years ago. You can use that, straight 40, or 20/50, or Merc's 25/40. Just not automotive 5/30 or 10/30 it will thin out.
As far as Zinc, it's been reduced due to concerns with cat converters. Diesel oil used to have like 1700 ppm of it, but is now down to like 900 ppm or so. I have done several oil analyses with marine oils and had very good results with the Mercruiser 25/50 syn blend oil, it has about 1300 ppm of zinc, the highest I have seen recently. My old Chevy has roller tappets though so it doesn't really matter.
Can't say how much the Ford takes exactly but I'd guess 5 US qts with the filter.

5 US qts = 10 US pts = 4.16 imperial qts = 8.26 imperial pints, so going on those figures if I pumped 9 pints out of my engine I was only overfilled by 0.7 pints (0.35 qts) yet my dipstick showed I was overfilled until I pumped 3 pints out. This is one of the reasons why I wanted to make sure... But I still don't know how much to put in, should I fill to the top of the safe area on the stick or fill to 8.26 imperial pints (less a bit for the oil filter contents)?

Different subject, I would've thought most marine applications would include an oil cooler but my boat doesn't have one and I don't see oil coolers mentioned much on forums like this. Would have thought oil coolers would be more common on boat engines, they might work under higher load than car engines for longer periods and have no cooling air blowing past the sump...

 

[Lou C]

Oil coolers I agree would have been a good idea, they have been used in high performance big block applications, but not on less expensive more consumer grade boats like ours. This is exactly why I advise no car based oil in a marine inboard, with no oil cooler. It will shear down the oil and it will lose viscosity vs what it should be. So a 10w30 can shear down to a 20 wt. I have done 5 oil analyses on my old engine over the years. I used Merc/Quicksilver oil the past 12 or so years. I have never found it to shear down in viscosity. Even when I had leaky head gaskets putting salt water in the oil back in '16. So while some think it's overpriced, I like using it. Before that I used straight 30 and the Merc oil actually held up better.
Those dipsticks with the tube that goes to the bottom of the engine are tricky. When the temp changes overnight, (cooler) or after running (hotter), they read inaccurately. Cooler = reads too high, hot = reads too low. Pull the stick out, wait 5 min for the level in that tube to equalize. That's as close as you can get. This is such a frustration to me that I bought a second dipstick that I can install on the starboard side of the engine (standard Chevy style) that goes right into the oil pan which will read correctly ALL the time!

 

[Lpgc]

Fitted the drive on Friday evening, removed the drive drainplug and dipstick. My 13x2mm drive socket wouldn't fit in the level plug so I left the drive fluid draining for a couple of days. Today I bought a big screwdriver and undid the level plug, used a little pump to refill the drive from the drain plug until the fluid came out of the level plug. Refitted the prop.



The old prop was ruined by the previous owner, this pic shows old/new prop.



The engine didn't run properly when I last used it with the old prop (but I've rebuilt the engine since). The old prop was a 14.5 x 21.



The 'new' prop is a reconditioned stainless 'Ballistic' 14.5 x 19".



How would you expect the 2 props to compare in performance (if the old prop was in good condition)?

Are either of these props a good choice for my 1996 Four Winns Sundowner 205 with OMC Cobra Volvo SX drive (Ford)?

 

[Lou C]

Well here’s the thing
The selection of the prop has to do with the gear ratio of the outdrive which is basically linked to the engine size. Bigger engines can use taller gears smaller ones have to use shorter gears. Now what you want is for the engine to reach the max rpm specified by the manufacturer which is usually 4400-4600 rpm. For my little V6 in my 20’ Horizon it was specified to reach 4600-4800 which I get with a 15x17 prop. I would start with the 19 pitch prop and see what that does wide open properly trimmed. If it gives you at least 4500-4600 that’s great.
I know on my boat if it had a 305 GM V8 it got a 19” pitch prop…so that should work for you too…

 

[Lpgc]

Thanks, I understand the prop should allow the engine to reach max rpm etc. I would have a good idea what to expect from a change in pitch if I knew a baseline (good engine and good prop) but my engine and prop were both bad when I bought the boat, I just went on marina advice and cost when I bought this prop. I don't really understand how change to a slightly smaller diameter with same pitch would affect things.

I bought a cheap multifuntion digital rev counter (also has a temperature sensor), might not permanently wire it in, will definitely use it to check accuracy of the dashboard rev counter and idle speed. Might connect the temp sensor to one of the exhaust downpipes.

 

[Horigan]

Your props are same diameter, 14.5. The new one has a lower pitch, 19, basically like a lower gear. So you'll have better hole shot, but you may over-rev the engine at max throttle. Watch for that as you work up to max throttle.

 

[Lpgc]

Your props are same diameter, 14.5. The new one has a lower pitch, 19, basically like a lower gear. So you'll have better hole shot, but you may over-rev the engine at max throttle. Watch for that as you work up to max throttle.

Thanks. When I was looking at buying a replacement prop I looked at one that might have been 14 x 21, the seller told me the 1/2" less diameter wouldn't make much practical difference. Is that true?

 

[Lpgc]

Thought my trim hydraulics were fixed after I changed an O ring on the pump, the drive did stay up over night when I test fitted it a few weeks ago. But now the drive is back to falling slowly again, no external leaks so the problem must be inside the rams or the pump.. But which?

1995 OMC Cobra with Volvo SX drive but I don't know if the rams are Cobra spec or Volvo SX spec. Can anyone tell me please (pic below)? Cobra motifs all over the drive and rams but it's an SX drive, just not sure about the rams.



Picture of the trim pump below, I believe it is the same pump used on Volvo SX drives but I don't know if that tells me if the rams are Volvo SX?



If I lift or lower the leg fully the pump makes a squeeling sound when the rams get to fully closed or fully open, does that point to a problem with the pump?

Also, isn't there supposed to be a trim tab bolted through that hole on the rear of the cavitation plate?

 

[Lou C]

Hard to say why it’s bleeding down it could be either the cyls or the pump. If you rebuild the cyls & it still does it then it’s the pump seals. I rebuilt mine because one side was leaking and both of the alu end pieces that the rod goes thru were really corroded. Had to fix it. What I did was leave the old cyls on the boat & rebuilt them with a better set of used piston rods. Those are def the Cobra design cylinders; under the plastic top cover is a steel hydraulic line that goes to the end of the cyl. The later Volvo ones incorporated that into the body of the cyl so the design is a bit different. You can rebuild yours with the kit sold by BRP, here it’s about $55 USD per side.

 

[Lou C]

About the anodes, they are a little different on this one vs the dog clutch Cobra, just alike a Volvo, there is one under the transom mount, one on the front end of the drive and one inside the bearing carrier.
The dog clutch models had that small cube anode like the Johnson and Evinrude outboards at the rear of the gearcase.