1987 Evinrude 200hp outboard resto/rebuild

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Jeff the bore size you posted clearly places you out of the 86/87 Year , this is the big bore 88 or up which your bore size matches .
As for oversize options .40 is max if not a re-sleeve which is expensive way to go period.
Please go the this site and plug in your information you will see why I am concern..If you install the wrong size jets/carbs you will be in doing this all over again.
http://www.wiseco.com/ProductSearch.aspx
Bore - Standard: 3.685in
Bore - Actual: 3.715in
Bore - Oversize: .030in
Cylinder Position: Starboard
Note: Loop Charge

I was just looking at this site myself. I also just got off the phone with the people that I order the gasket set from. Had to switch over to the big bore 88-92 full set.

So when I get it brought in for honing, if it is out of spec I can still have it bored to the next size up. At least there is options here.....

Question one; I have a full set of ignition for a 200-225 1987, can this be used on a 1988 225hp.
Second one; what carbs am I supposed to be running?
Third; How do I tell what model power ead I have?

Thanks for all the help. This is going to be one of those frankenstien/junk yard motors, I pretty sure of it now. This is going to be fun!!!!

 

[wilde1j]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

I saw some of the back and forth on fuel line size. Motors 140HP and up should have 3/8" ID line, period! You're asking for trouble with smaller line size.

 

[nymack66]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Question one; I have a full set of ignition for a 200-225 1987, can this be used on a 1988 225hp. >>The answer is no see the attach document
Second one; what carbs am I supposed to be running?>>> Measure the inside throat of your carbs and post it. ( Lets ID the year first)
Third; How do I tell what model power ead I have? >> Use this information and compare part numbers to the one you are removing...

 

[dehydrated]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

great point one the fuel line should be 3/8 as far as running the 86-87 ignition yes you can i have that system on my 225 which is a 1989 powerhead the 225 had mid bore carbs running 34 idles 47 mids and 62d main jets . look under powerhead and on top for model numbers also post all you can find or on welsh plug.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Been sitting here thinking about the last couple of posts. These have raised a couple of more questions in my mind. This is in regard to the ignition system and carbs.

Lets leave out the year specific components and talk about how the motors where design. To my understanding a motor's ignition system is design to fire a certain amount of fuel air mixture at a certain compresion factor.

I know that the fuel air mixture is variable and so it timing of the spark. But lets say we talk about a WOT specific RPM (5800 rpm). If the 1987 and 1988-1992 ignition system sparks the same plugs with the same voltage (Spark) regardless of the system componets. Couldn't you just swap the complete systems between the two. So long as you swaped the whole ignition system. (Stator, trigger, regulator, power packs, coils, plugs, and wiring harness)

Now if this is so, then the next problem to determine is if the ignition system is providing the same spark thru the whole range of RPM. (Idel to Wot). I would think they are, but I do not know.

Then the next thing would be to match the carbs to the requirement of the ignition system. Same jets. Right? Or am I out in left field and over thinking this?

 

[wilde1j]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

I would stick with equipment for your model year, unless you don't mind owning a Frankenstein motor. There are issues of mechanical compatability beyond just the functional ones. Things like whether the flywheel is compatible with a potentially different stator, etc. etc. The benefits are too few to spend time and/or money on trying to re-engineer the motor.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

I would stick with equipment for your model year, unless you don't mind owning a Frankenstein motor. There are issues of mechanical compatability beyond just the functional ones. Things like whether the flywheel is compatible with a potentially different stator, etc. etc. The benefits are too few to spend time and/or money on trying to re-engineer the motor.

I don't normally disagree with the "keep it stock mantality". But I have no parts from a 88-92 ignition system. I have a full new 1987 ignition system in boxes and the old one that is on the motor. So I'm just trying to not have to spend $1000-&1500 on the other 1988-92 system I do not have. So we are going to have to try to reengineer this system. Because the wife just said "no" over my shoulder. It was more like Hell No!!!!! I Don't Think So!!!!

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Question one; I have a full set of ignition for a 200-225 1987, can this be used on a 1988 225hp.

Yes ,you can install that ignition on motors up to 1990 if you have 86-87 year flywheel to go with it.

Second one; what carbs am I supposed to be running?

The 86-87 20" 200-225hp motors had the same carbs just different jetting, just like the 88-90 models. The difference is the throttle body manifolds as the 86-87 200 had a 3 screw butterfly and the 225 had a 4 screw. The 88-90 have 3 screws and the butterfly is drilled and notched different between the 200 & 225.Go by part number stamped into manifolds to see what you have.

Third; How do I tell what model power ead I have?

There is no difference between a 200 & 225 powerhead. The extra 25 hp is carbs/manifolds. They even share the same "smog head" between the 200/225hp's up till 90 and some 91's. It a pre 93 engine as it does not look to be finger ported and its not a 86-87(2.7) that been bored to big bore spec's(3.0) as there is no bridge in exhaust port. As for boring .040 is biggest you can go as previous posted. If you do bore it to .040 increase the main jets 2 sizes and use a Vertex or Promarine piston.(if you use Pro piston tell them you want the new pistons with relocated ring locating pins/ not old stock)

 

[dehydrated]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

what is the casting number on the flywheel?

 

[j_k_bisson]

Update 01-29-2011

Update 01-29-2011

Well the night started like this;



I'll show you how the night ended later in the next post. I was able to find all the part numbers and casting numbesr to help identify the parts. Here is a pic of the carb side plate. You see the number clearly. Have not went thru all the carbs to confirm that they all have the same numbers. I will do that at a later date when rebuilding them. But at a quick glance they appear all the same. The jet numbers I can see in the open bores are #14 and #50.



If anyone know off hand what year they are. Please let me know. Next I took a pic of the flywheel. There was not casting number on it. Only this stamped number.



Again if anyone knows how to identify from this number. Please let me know what year it is. The next I found the following casting number on the top and bottom of the block. As you can see in the one, the block is a 1990 225.





Are these good blocks? I heard that certain years (1991'ish) the castings for the block sometimes get a hairline crack in the #1 cyclinder that leads to failure. Is this one of those blocks?

Cont'd next post.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Update 01-29-2011 cont'd

Update 01-29-2011 cont'd

The dissassembly on the block ended last night around 12:30am. I ran into a wall, it was a 5/16" 12pt socket I did not have. Actually I just got home from town trying to find one. Could not find one anywhere that was open on a Saterday. All the metric ones I could want but not one 5/16" Std one. I was able to pick up a 8mm 12pt and it fitts pretty tight, but I would have prefered to have the proper tool for the job. I'll end up picking up a set on Monday from the states.

This brings up a question on assembly tools. Do I really need the OMC Alignment Fixture P/N 396749 to re=torque these rod bolts? If I do where do I get one?

Here are the pic of the parts after dissassembly.







Seeing I was not ready to call it a night. I practiced my box making skills. I made a custom box to hold my pistons. Seeing I do not want to have to buy new ones. I will protect the ones I have. Also will make for identification better. Here the box I came up with.



I quickly when through the parts. It appears that the reeds are in perfect shape but they limiting flaps are discoloured on a couple. Is this the protective coating the book talks about?

So today I'm going to finish dissassembling the block. Then clean it and measure it. I called CJ's Head and Hole shop in Wateford MI to set up an appointment to have the block proffessionally inspected and possibly honed and bored depending on the measurements next Wensday. So need to get it nice and clean. I also want to go thru everything and "blue print" everything that needs to be as per the service manual. Don't want any issues out on the water this summer. So for the next week the varsol tank will be going strong. No smoking near my garage!!!!! I'll even ba able to pull out all my machinist tools and use them. Have not had to do that since I work at a machine shop in the 90's. This will be fun!

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Yes ,you can install that ignition on motors up to 1990 if you have 86-87 year flywheel to go with it.

Why does the flywheel have to be a 1987? Do they both have the same counter weight?

The 86-87 20" 200-225hp motors had the same carbs just different jetting, just like the 88-90 models. The difference is the throttle body manifolds as the 86-87 200 had a 3 screw butterfly and the 225 had a 4 screw. The 88-90 have 3 screws and the butterfly is drilled and notched different between the 200 & 225.Go by part number stamped into manifolds to see what you have.

Here is a pic of the throttle bores and the casting number.






There is no difference between a 200 & 225 powerhead. The extra 25 hp is carbs/manifolds. They even share the same "smog head" between the 200/225hp's up till 90 and some 91's. It a pre 93 engine as it does not look to be finger ported and its not a 86-87(2.7) that been bored to big bore spec's(3.0) as there is no bridge in exhaust port. As for boring .040 is biggest you can go as previous posted. If you do bore it to .040 increase the main jets 2 sizes and use a Vertex or Promarine piston.(if you use Pro piston tell them you want the new pistons with relocated ring locating pins/ not old stock)

What is the the manifold you refer to? The exhaust or the intake/throttle?

 

[dehydrated]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

intake man napa auto has 5/16 12 pt pros on alignment tool but lots of people as myself put them togather without 2 critical stages of reassembly one setting crankshaft making damn sure you have center bearings set on notch also making sure rod caps are matched perfectly scribe each rod cap with awl helps with assembly obviously you have the picture part down already lol

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Why does the flywheel have to be a 1987? Do they both have the same counter weight?

Its the magnet position in center of flywheel as the timer base is different on the 90's and up...

Are these good blocks? I heard that certain years (1991'ish) the castings for the block sometimes get a hairline crack in the #1 cyclinder that leads to failure. Is this one of those blocks?

That the 60? models....

Do I really need the OMC Alignment Fixture P/N 396749 to re=torque these rod bolts?

No.. just make sure rod cap is aligned properly and torque in 4 steps using new rod bolts to 42-44 ft pounds with no locktite...

What is the the manifold you refer to? The exhaust or the intake/throttle?

The throttle manifold that has shafts/butterflys in them behind the carbs. The date stamped in block was done by the rebuilder as this is not factory and it appears to have been done in Jan. of 1997. While you got it down go ahead and vent the bottom bearing as this will make the recirc system really work and it will idle sooooooo much better. Also check the main jet size as from looking at your parts and carbs what you have is a 1987 225(E225TXCUB) ignition,carbs,etc, bolted to a 90 model powerhead. The long shaft uses the 3 screw manifold to increase torque and main jetting is smaller. If motor was done properly mains should be in the low 60's..

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

While you got it down go ahead and vent the bottom bearing as this will make the recirc system really work and it will idle sooooooo much better.

What is this rework? I have not heard of it. Do you have the specifics on how to do this and send them to me? Or maybe post here?

Thanks for all the info so far. Its making me alot more comfortable with this motor. How would I identify the the fly wheel? The only numbers I can find on it is "16F L3". I can not find any casting numbers on it.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Re: Update 01-28-2011 cont'd Rev-2

Well last night spent the first half of the night cleaning up the block. I cleaned every gasket surface with a razor blade, file, and brake cleaner. Then cleaned out evey threaded hole by running a tap down then blowing them out with compressed air. Cleaned every bolt with the drippings of brake cleaner put into a plastic butter container. That work awsome! Bolts look like new. The brake cleaner took off all the old loctite on them. This is what it came out looking like.







When I was done measuring I coated the whole block with LPS Heavy Duty Rust Inhibitor. Would not reccomend this product for this application. This stuff drys like a waxy film. If I was storing this block for a long time maybe, but not for a couple of days of storage. I will need to wash everything down again with brake cleaner to get it off.

Here is how the measuring went. I'm going to show the measurements and the tolerence. Seeing I do not have the 1990 eveinrude book I need someone to confirm that these tolerence are the same as the 1987 book.

Block Bore size.
Cyl-Top Dim (2plcs), Bot Dim (2plcs)
PT-3.7152,3.7148-3.7148,3.7153
PM-3.7147,3.7147-3.7149,3.7157
PB-3.7153,3.7157-3.7154,3.7156
ST-3.7157,3.7154-3.7164,3.7156
SM-3.7153,3.7157-3.7162,3.7164
SB-3.7156,3.7152-3.7161-3.7163
The tolerence in the book says taper tol=0.002" and the size tol=0.004" oversized.

The ring end gap is all in tolerence. The gap tolerence in the book is 0.019"-0.031". If outside of these numbers then replace. None of the rings have any marks that matched the cylinder wall marks on them. So I have to assume that the marks/sorces where made from the piston skirt or forgien material getting into the system.

I still need to measure the piostons and the crank seals. I'll probably do that this afternoon. So far nothing out of tolerence. I had a good look at the bores that where iffy. They could be re-honed possibly. Anyone have any thought on those one?

 

[j_k_bisson]

Update 01-30-2011 Rev-2

Update 01-30-2011 Rev-2

I finally found the part casting number number for the flywheel. It is 583146. Can anyone identify this one?

 

[dehydrated]

Re: Update 01-30-2011 Rev-2

Re: Update 01-30-2011 Rev-2

jeff, so far i have not found that # 87 should be583281 list timer base number and stator number 1990 flywheelwould be583970 post some more numbers

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Update 01-30-2011 Rev-2

Re: Update 01-30-2011 Rev-2

Here i this afternoons progress. I measure3d all hte pistons. I still need to analysis the data. Then I removed the crank seal rings. I measured those and four of them need to be replaced. Here is a pic of all of them and then the four of them. The ones that need to be replaced are .002" under the limit.





Next I started looking for more part numbers for the carbs. Here are the two part numbers from the throttle body.





Here is a pick of the only casting number in the flywheel.



I could not find the part number anywhere on the internet. Could this be a counter rotation flywheel? Don't know that much about these things. ANy help would be very greatfull.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Update 01-30-2011 Rev-2

Re: Update 01-30-2011 Rev-2

Could this be a counter rotation flywheel? Don't know that much about these things. ANy help would be very greatfull.

I have a counter rotation 150hp, the engine doesn't counter rotate, just the gearbox/prop.