1967 IMP Aztec -- Resto Underway again Suggestions please

[ezmobee]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

All those darn fiberglass guys must be too deep in their own itchy projects to respond....so you're stuck with my information regurgitation

I'd go with poly is I was you. You boat was originally made with it and when used with the correct glass products (CSM, etc) it's plenty strong. Plus, as you suspected, gel coat doesn't stick to epoxy. You'll spend a LOT more money on epoxy. Heck I used it just to seal my deck boards and couldn't believe how much I went through. You using it will all those glass products would probably cost you a grand in resin alone. If you do still go with epoxy, ondarvr has pretty strongly recommended against thinning it and he's an expert.

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

ezmobee, thanks for the regurgitation.......

I figured that they will get to it when they can, hopefully sooner than later

I was thinking the same thing and will probaly go witht the poly. now i have to research whether i need to change over any of the glass materials for the layup schedule

hopefully one of the glass experts will come by soon and help steer me the right direction.

I am driving down to St. Pete next tuesday for the week for work and they have alot more place to buy the glass and resin then they do up here in Buford Georgia with better pricing. So if I can get the experts to chime in before then i will be able to pick up the materials while i am down there and save on shipping and product cost.

Anyone know of a good place in St. Pete for glass and resin with good prices?

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

[/COLOR]Some modifications:

Should i use Epoxy or Poly since i want to gelcoat inside and out?


Transom:
Need to make it 2" to 2 1/4" for a Merc. Plan on using, in this order, 1/2", 3/4", 1/2" ply. Saturate all surfaces with 2 coats of epoxy, (Should this be thinned Epoxy?) , use 1.5oz CSM between each ply and between the outer skin and first 1/2"ply. Use 1200 biax,12" for tabbing the edges, then 3 complete coats of 1200 biax overlapping to the hull sides and bottom. does it make a big difference if i use 1200, 1208, 1708 here for the skin?

Stringers:
Use 3/4", 1/2", 3/4" plywood. Saturate all surfaces with 2 coats of epoxy, (Should this be thinned Epoxy?) and use 1.5oz csm between the ply. Create new knees from transom to stringers for extra support. these will all be one piece from the transom to the stringer with the stringer joints of all ply offset and joined with a rabbet edge joint. tab to the hull using 1200 biax tape, 6" wide, then 3 wraps with 1200 biax.

Questions:
1. should i create a "T" beam like they had originally for floor support? My thought was yes, so i could epoxy the floor to the support using peanut butter instead of screwing it down.
2. For bedding in the stringers, what would be a good substitute for 5200? My understanding is that you do not want to use the thickened epoxy so there are no hard spots to crack the hull. Is this incorrect thinking? would 1/8" or 1/4" foam strips of some type work?
3. Am i missing anything or is there something i should change?

thanks in advance.


Forgot something. Should i wait until i have everything ready to go before i cut out all of the stringers? will it hurt anything like deform the hull? Also should i put in some cross supports for the beam to prevent the transom from possibly changing?

Not sure how I been missing this one. Sorry rrumba!! Your boat is made from Poly so I'd stay with it. Gelcoat will NOT adhere to Epoxy so it's important that if you want to do the exterior in Gelcoat that you have Poly.

I have developed some drawings to help users here on iBoats with their restorations. They are based on the assumptions that you will be using Ext. Grade AC FIR Ply wood, Arucao, Or Marine Grade Plywood and that you will Pre-Coat all wood surfaces with resin before applying any CSM, Cloth, or Woven Roving. These are recommendations and do NOT have to be followed exactly. It's just how I have had success doing it.

I Use PL Premium Adhesive to Bed my Stringers. Use 1/4" dowels to hold them up off the hull while you squirt it under the stringers. Use a Large plastic spoon dipped in mineral spirts to create a nice coved joint. Let this cure for a minimum of 48 hrs before tabbin the stringers to the hull with csm and resin. Remove the dowels.

If you decide to use Epoxy you do NOT need to use CSM. When laminating your Transom and stringers together the epoxy is all that is needed. You will need to cover and tab them to the hull with 17 oz cloth. 2 layers would be plenty. My drawing show how to do it with Poly. for your deck you do NOT have to finish the deck with 1708. 3 layers of CSM will do the trick too.

I would stick with the T-Beam. You can cut all the stringers at the same time. Take measurements of the hull so you will know where its supposed to be when you are finished. You can make templates from cardboard to help recreate everything.

Send me a PM anytime you need help with anything.

This guys thread has lots of videos that will help you understand a lot of the processes involved with what you will be doing.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=454460&highlight=friscoboater

(Click the pics to Enlarge)

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

thanks a lot woodonglass.........

i am going to go with poly as the end goal is gelcoat over everything inside and out. i have been checking out friscoboater's thread and am about 1/4 of the way through it. it is very helpful.

another question i have is when coatign the plywood with resin, Poly, does it need to be thinned out? it may be covered in frisco's thread but i have not gotten that far. hope to by the end of the weekend so i can get supplies in st. pete next week.

I like the PL Premium as i have seen a lot of people using it but the bubbles were the problem. I did find a website while researching it that a guy used the one for concrete and it does not bubble. Anyone try the stuff? here is a link, let me know what you guys think as i will probably use it unless others have tried it with negative results.

http://www.simplicityboats.com/pl_premium.htm

the wooden dowel idea is should take care of that. Again, thanks.

So now how far off am i on my layup schedule if switching to Poly? If i use several layers of 1200 to wrap the stingers instead of the 1708 that seems to be difficult to get around sharp edges, is this a sound idea or jsut a waste? Is there anyother fiberglass that i should change the weight on or type that i have for use?

sorry for all the questions as i second guess myself now and have to go back and research the poly and glass.:facepalm:

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

the PL Premium always worked well for me. DO NOT thin the POLY. Precoat all the wood first and let it dry. Pay special attention to the edges. If there are voids in the edges, I recommend filling them with Durham Water PUtty before coating. After everything is coated then re-coat with resin and lay a layer of CSM and Overlap the edges. I use a 1/4" nap 6" roller and a bubble buster roller. 1708 biaxial cloth is VERY EASY to use it wraps very well. I recommend rounding the top edges of your stringers. You will love it. It DOES use a LOT of resin so be prepared. You should buy 10 gallons of resin and 15 yds of 1.5oz CSM and 10 yds of 1708 Biax to start. You may need more resin and cloth but this will be a good start. You will need 2 gallons of cabosil and 2qts. of chopped strand fibers for making Peanut Butter for filleting.

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

thanks wood for the information.........

I have more questions about poly resin now after researcing where to buy. There is GP, Laminating, casting, surfoard, clear, etc. etc. etc..... so the question is if the GP is good for doing this vs the others?

I have found one called boat builders GP polyester resin and here is what they say:

GP-200
General Purpose
This resin features the best
of both worlds,
excellent low shrinkage
formulations without the
inherent brittleness
associated with straight
DCPD?s and custom for any
fabrication needs.

Will this work and does it seem like a good product? I can get the 10 gals while it st. pete next week and save on shipping and the hazmat fee so that money saved there for the 10 gals will allow me to buy 15 for the same price as having it shipped.

It is from Advanced coatings company sold by http://www.fiberglassservices.com/index.htm

I cannot find anyone in North GA that sells it other WM and they have been sniffing the fumes without the resipator.

 

[CheapboatKev]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

I am absolutely no help on the glassing issue..But was curious what size Merc you are thinking of getting for her?
Since you will want to change that motor & OD, I guess a full transom job is in order and then a new cut out.
I think a 4.3 V6 would be a nice motor in there

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Hey cheap, thanks for stopping in.......

It had a 200hp OMC 300CID, so i was thinking about a 5.7L, carburated. it is a heavy boat with still with out the motor, outdrive and floor. I tried to lift up one side, push up on the bow, move the stern and she would not BUDGE!!!!! that seems like a good thing to me. From all the research i have done on the IMPs, they are very heavy boats and cut through rough chop and waves like a big deep V would today. i hope that is still true.....

You are correct, a new transom and new cut out is planned as the transom is rotted and delaminating as well. this has taken me a long time to start and lately i have not had time to get much else done with work getting in the way of the fun. after the 4th i will be back at tearing the rest of the engine deck out and the transom, new transom and then hopefully get the stringers in and dect template done, at least from the engine compartment forward.

Still trying to research and layout the merc supports. A whole lot of reading on this site has been taking place and getting the much needed advice from everyon on here.

I love this place.....

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

ok, due to rain, a trip, and an addition to the fleet i have not been able to make any progress. hopefully when i get back next week i will be able to put some time in and get some pics uploaded.

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Alrighty, finally back from the trip and was able to get some more work done so time to start the updates and progress reports.

Since getting back "work" has gotten in the way of the "real work", ie. boat resto. As luck would have it, i get done working and then the rain comes in for an hour or two and really slows down progress . So far i have been able to get the engine compartment, engine suppoort beams and surrounding area removed.

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Rain again tonight, but I was able to get the stringers cut out, the inside skin for the Transom cut all the way around and started removing the skin. it was very thin, just a little thicker than a piece of paper . You know it is never good when you cut the skin at the bottom of the transom by the boat plug and about a half gallon of water comes running out :facepalm:. I will get the pictures posted tomorrow.

Tomorrow's agenda, try using a 3000lb electric winch to pull the transom out, start grinding where the stringers and deck edge was at, if successful at transom removal then grind down the skin for the new transom as well.

For the Transom and stringers i am planning on using Arauco plywood. for the stringers it will be two 3/4" pieces glued together using 1.5oz CSM between them. For the transom the plan was to use a 3/4", 1/2", 3/4" in that order with 1.5oz CSM between them to glue them together and to build up to 2" and then using the 1708 on the inside to finish up the thickness to 2 1/2" for a mercruiser drive system.

Going by Woodonglass's suggestion I have on hand 10 gallons of resin, catalyst, 1.5oz CSM and 1708.

One question i do have pertaining to the ratio/mix for the poly resin, how thin do i want it to be to put 2 coats on the plywood for saturation and what do you use to thin it down if anything?

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Also, where i got my supplies from in St. Pete was very helpful. for 5 gallons of resin it was only 98.00. they will also sell you the CSM, 1708 or any other fabric to you for the per weight cost if you do not have it cut by the yard. In doing this they will allow you, with the original reciept, to return what you do not use and get a refund for the leftover materials as long as it is clean with no resin drips or unravelled edges from pulling on a thread. Something that will help to save some money. If i would have bought the CSM and 1708 by the yard i would have paid a lot more. buying it by the roll of whatever has already been cut or some used it was abou the same cost as the per yard cost for 15 yards and there is more than 15 yards on the roll. In all it was 408.00 for 10 gallons of resin, catalyst, 60lbs of 1708 and cannot remember the weight of the CSM, but you get the idea.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Sorry rrumba that I have NOT been around. I have actually been working on MY BOAT for a change. Trying to get the final Color Coats of paint on the top side. But when the Temps are 102 degrees you gotta get up at dawn to get anything done and then you only have a few hours before it's to hot.

Sounds like you are "Spot On" on your Transom plan. Your materials order was Great as well. Have you made plans for how you are going to Clamp everything in place. You need to do some dry runs so you will KNOW exactly how it is all going to go in place before you mix the PB, cuz when it's mixed you've only got about 15 minutes to get everything in place and clamped up. I hope you have a FRIEND to help you when the time comes. He/She needs to go through the dry run with you too!

For fabricating the transom do you have your rollers, bubble buster roller, Acetone, latex gloves, respirator etc... all ready to go?? When you do the mat for the transom cut it about 3'' over size and then TEAR the edges away leaving 1 1/2" of HAIRY GLASS to wrap over the edges. This Hairy Edge makes wrapping the edges easier. Do the same when you do the outer layups as well. DON'T forget to PRE-COAT ALL of the WOOD First and Pay CLOSE ATTENTION to the edges. IF There are any voids in the edges. Mix up some Thickened resin and FILL THOSE Void before Glue up.

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Thanks for the quick reply WOG. Glad to hear you were able to work on YOUR boat for a change and still have time to respond to us others trying to advance our projects. Now 102, THAT is HOT. you have all the dry weather and heat, i have spotty rain showers with the humidity, but i will gladly take that over 102 temp, being in a Tyvek suit, with respirator, goggles and hood. I would be a baked potato at that point.

I do not have a lot holes in the transom except for two on each side that had the U bolts for tie down. I plan on using 2x4s across the back on the inside, one on top, bottom and middle with the same on the outside. Then using two more on the inside to make an X with each notched out so they are even and sit flush against all 3 inside. Using the few holes already in the transom, I will use some lag bolts from the outside and in the BIG hole in the center to try and put equal pressure on the entire assembly. hope that makes sense the way it came out. it makes sense in my head but reads rather oddly. hmm

I have 2 boys over 20 to help me and the admiral for giving directions as she does not take orders well We will be doing test runs as well before hand. I was planning on using some paper to create the first template, then transfer to a door skin and try to get a near perfect template leaving about 1/4 to 1/8 inch around the sides and bottom for filling with PB.

Once i have the wood sealed, by not thinning the poly, with 2 coats and making sure the edges have no voids and wrapping the edges as you suggested with the hairy edges. I was planning on doing all 3 together, letting them setup and then install the new transom in as one assembly, let it setup and then come back and fill with the PB. The way i read what you had written, it sounds like i should seal all boards, then layup one piece at a time, fill edges with the PB, then clamp everything down making this an entire process to be done at one time instead of several steps. If this is a better method then what i was planning on, then this is how i will proceed. Tthe method i described above, is it acceptable or just as good or which is the BEST method?

another thought i had was where the sides meet the transom and where i plan on installing the knee braces as part of the transom, was to cut/route out a dado or channel or whatever it would be called in wood terms, to be able to recess the knee braces into the transom with PB then glass over with the 1708 for the strength i am looking for with the new power plant. Is this a sound idea or just making extra and harder work for myslef? Will just glassing it where it meets the tansom be enough? How high up should the knee brace go, i was planning on at least 12" high 2" deep gradually increasing to about 6-8" when it hits the bottom of the hull and continues on to the bow as part of the stringer.

Any thoughts, suggestions, corrections to what i have above? Off to grind and pull a transom out now so i can get to the wood in about 4 hours.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

"Once i have the wood sealed, by not thinning the poly, with 2 coats and making sure the edges have no voids and wrapping the edges as you suggested with the hairy edges. I was planning on doing all 3 together, letting them setup and then install the new transom in as one assembly, let it setup and then come back and fill with the PB. The way i read what you had written, it sounds like i should seal all boards, then layup one piece at a time, fill edges with the PB, then clamp everything down making this an entire process to be done at one time instead of several steps. If this is a better method then what i was planning on, then this is how i will proceed. Tthe method i described above, is it acceptable or just as good or which is the BEST method?"

Nope. Precoat All the wood first. Then coat the mating sides with resin and lay the mat on the 3/4" piece then lay the 1/2" piece on top then coat it and lay the mat then coat the last 3/4" piece and place it and clamp the Entire Assemble together so you have the entire Transom assembly. You can use some a couple of screws to keep it all aligned. Cover with plastic and clamp it all up Then come back and cover it ALL with resin and mat.

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Ok, so precoat, then install just as stated above but do it in the boat on the transom so when it is all done it is in the boat curing where it should be in the transom, it's final home so to speak. when i install the first 3/4 up against the outer skin, should there be any CSM between them or just grind up the outer skin to get a good bond? Do i need to coat the plastic with anything to keep it from sticking or will the plastic allow it to cure hard or remain tacky? is the plastic taking the place of the wax?

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Nope make the entire transom OUTSIDE of the boat. The only glassing you will do inside the boat is the final 1708 layers.

Check out these videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZSjnoHY2u8&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_FKuN3n1As&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdshiwBMYGM&feature=fvwrel

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Ok, Gotcha WOG. thanks for the links. I have been steadily going through his from the begining but have not reached that point yet. So now I have watched those and am fast tracking the begining of the transom to the stringers tonight and watching them all. very good and useful information, thanks for putting them out there for us Frisco.

Thanks for all the help WOG.

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

oK, so today did not go as planned. Was not able to get it out the easy wat tha Jasoutside did. Had to do it the old fashioned hard as heck way.

what i found out was that between each layer of plywood they actually filled in the edges and glassed over each peice individually from port to stbd, top to bottom. each layer was about 1/8" thick. It took all day using a circular saw, sawzall, cutoff wheels, crow bars, pry bars, chisels and hammers. there was no way that was coming out even after going all around the edges several times cutting as far down as i was able to.

So after a long day, some unkind words, sore back, shoulders, neck, busted and cut up knucles and fingers, IT IS OUT.........:facepalm:

So if murphy does not show up i hope to have all the grinding done for the transom and stringer placement, template cut out for the transom, transom wood cut out, sealed with 2 coats of slow cure poly then glued together with CSM as stated by WOG and shown by Friscoboater.

now the pics, not much to see really;

Before the HARD work:

midway through

 

[rrumba]

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

Re: 1967 IMP Aztec -- Thoughts and suggestions for Rebuild maybe repower

The wood pile

After