year round school???

[bruceb58]

Re: year round school???

No wonder California has budget problems.
Here on the east coast we do things a bit different. If you make $70K in 9 months then take off 3 months, you still only have $70K in the bank at the end of 12 months.

That's the same here. They only get paid for the 9 months. Its not the salaries that are killing us but the inflated pensions.

Not sure what its like on the east coast but teachers don't pay into social security. They have their own fund they pay into which of course gets bailed out by the taxpayers.

We have a proposition coming up in November that will limit the amount of money the teachers unions can get and contribute to candidates. Of course the teachers union is spending nearly $40 million dollars to defeat it...sounds a little corrupt doesn't it? There is only $3 million raised to support the proposition.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cal...ives-another-69-million-to-prop-32-fight.html

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Re: year round school???

I reckon Summer School is a great idea.
I mean, where else can you get a baby-sitting service that also teaches them.
The more time these little people spend in the classroom the better I say.
The cost is pretty reasonable too.

My little gem is 1st year Uni, and 'got bored as' during last mid term break, so has enrolled in Summer School with another Uni so he can knock-off 2 units.
Reckons if he does that for 2 summers, he is out 6 months early.
Suits me and his mother just fine. Bring it on we say.

Cheers
Phillip

 

[ngt]

Re: year round school???

No wonder California has budget problems.
Here on the east coast we do things a bit different. If you make $70K in 9 months then take off 3 months, you still only have $70K in the bank at the end of 12 months.

lol, pretty sure that's how it works everywhere.

 

[ngt]

Re: year round school???

We have a proposition coming up in November that will limit the amount of money the teachers unions can get and contribute to candidates. Of course the teachers union is spending nearly $40 million dollars to defeat it...sounds a little corrupt doesn't it? There is only $3 million raised to support the proposition.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cal...ives-another-69-million-to-prop-32-fight.html

What the proposition does, is it doesn't allow unions to get voluntary donations from dues to go towards politics. We pay $97 per month to our union and $6 of that goes towards getting information out there for people. That money you're talking about is all coming from that pot. Its not dirty at all. If I don't want my $6 to go into making political choices that help teachers public, I can go online, click a box on CTA's website, and my $6 goes into the general fund. All this proposition does is kills the political voice of unions in California. Not just teachers, but policemen, firemen, etc..

 

[bruceb58]

Re: year round school???

Edit: Decided to delete my post. Got too political.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: year round school???

WOW, did this thread ever take a strange turn. (Lots of bashing when I was asking about year around school. )

Well,

Stop and think about it.

The resistance to "year-round" school (essentially shorter breaks) is largely NOT based on what's best for the actual students!

It seems to be based on (some)people that don't wish to work all year (like the rest of us)

Would you want to give up a roughly 3 month off Summer, Thanksgiving and Christmas to either just go fishing (or "moonlight" etc)? I have been at my company for nearly 25 years and I cannot get a Summer vacation!

Not only should we have year-round school (with appropriate term 'breaks") l, but there should be double shift facilities where classrooms could be utilized in double shift day and night.

AND teachers should be paid well (based of course on how well their students do)

We throw more money at students than any other industrialized society yet our students don't perform as well as other nations kids do that spend FAR less.



Evidently the amount of money spent is not directly related to student performance, yet the only fix offered by the "Govt" is to spend more money on them!

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

​

 

[nwcove]

Re: year round school???

No wonder California has budget problems.
Here on the east coast we do things a bit different. If you make $70K in 9 months then take off 3 months, you still only have $70K in the bank at the end of 12 months.

gee, i wish i could work for a year..or 9 months, make 70k ...and still have 70k in the bank at the end of the year!! major flaw in that equation!! ( 70000 ( pay) - 75000(bills)=credit debt) lol sounds like another reason for year round school, or at least math class!

 

[WIMUSKY]

Re: year round school???

Not only should we have year-round school (with appropriate term 'breaks") l, but there should be double shift facilities where classrooms could be utilized in double shift day and night.

Ya, ok....... I hope your being facetious......

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: year round school???

Ya, ok....... I hope your being facetious......

Not at all.

My daughter would have LOVED to be in school during the "late" shift instead of the "morning" shift. A LOT of people work late and would like to have their kids in "late" school etc......

We have very expensive school facilities that sit totally idle from about 1500-2300 daily. There are many students and teachers would probably LOVE to work during the "late" shift so they could sleep in, (along with their parents who also work late) etc.

There are probably other ways maximize use of facilities. Some people would like to have Monday and Tuesday "off" and work WED-SUN etc.

A large amount of schooling could be online, at charter, and or private schools and at home.

The above is usually called "thinking out of the box"

We're currently stuck in 19th century thinking with 19th century government provided schools.

Other countries have tried other ways some successful and some not. we have only tried spending more money (only because we had it.)

So far, it's not working very well.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: year round school???

Ok, in thinking outside the box and doing a bit of a recap on what some of the Iboaters have brought up this is where I am at:
1) The current education system needs some serious upgrades to improve education in order to compete internationally.
2) Adjusting (lengthening) the school year is an uphill battle with respect to the summers on/summers off deal....with not only an embedded tradition for kids but clearly an issue for teachers and their unions.
3) The empty classroom syndrome for a lot of the day...does not make great economic sense or great infrastructure investment.

So how about this as a possible new line of thinking:
Lengthen the school day itself to start earlier, say: 8:00-8:30 and run to say....4:30 or 5:00, not all unlike a typical work day(....uhh, for non teachers that is ). This would provide more yearly teaching time with the extra 2+ hours per day of classes. It would also allow parents a little easier scheduling of their work days relative to their kids school schedules. As well, it would allow summers and the issues surrounding them (those fantastic 3 months off for teachers and students alike)...to just be more or less left alone.
Maybe 1hr of the mandated/supervised extra time per day could be direct and specific physical education only time....so that of some of these little potato shaped characters could burn off a few pounds with a little less limited home time on the couch in front of their Play stations.
.....feedback?
Anywhooooo, my two bits.
BP

 

[ngt]

Re: year round school???

Lengthen the school day itself to start earlier, say: 8:00-8:30 and run to say....4:30 or 5:00, not all unlike a typical work day(....uhh, for non teachers that is ).

Wow. You seriously think that? Kids may be there from 8:20-3:00, but I'm at work from 6:45-4:30 or later daily...teachers put in more hours that 9-5 punch in/punch out jobs. Anyone who thinks different, doesn't know any teachers. Projects don't prep themselves. Papers don't grade themselves. I'm just astounded at how little people in this thread actually know about what teachers do and what it takes to be one. You make a 6 year old stay in school from 8-5. Teachers will be working from 7am-7 or 8pm to prep all of those lessons and grade everything needed. How many of you work 12-13 hour days 5 days per week. I'm guessing none.

 

[rockyrude]

Re: year round school???

I guess I don't understand how lifestyle choice plays in. If your spending more than you make, doesn't matter what job it is, your behind. I think teaching is the least understood profession there is, if your not in it or know someone who is you don't know what goes into it.

 

[WIMUSKY]

Re: year round school???

Wow. You seriously think that? Kids may be there from 8:20-3:00, but I'm at work from 6:45-4:30 or later daily...teachers put in more hours that 9-5 punch in/punch out jobs. Anyone who thinks different, doesn't know any teachers. Projects don't prep themselves. Papers don't grade themselves. I'm just astounded at how little people in this thread actually know about what teachers do and what it takes to be one. You make a 6 year old stay in school from 8-5. Teachers will be working from 7am-7 or 8pm to prep all of those lessons and grade everything needed. How many of you work 12-13 hour days 5 days per week. I'm guessing none.

Let's not forget about the long bus rides to and from school that a lot of rural kids have. What about after school activities? Then what time are the kids getting home? Then they need to eat. Then homework. These kids will be like zombies in school and will learn even less. Not really talking about just the 6 year olds, but kids in general. My opinion would be, no thanks......

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: year round school???

Wow. You seriously think that? Kids may be there from 8:20-3:00, but I'm at work from 6:45-4:30 or later daily...teachers put in more hours that 9-5 punch in/punch out jobs. Anyone who thinks different, doesn't know any teachers. Projects don't prep themselves. Papers don't grade themselves. I'm just astounded at how little people in this thread actually know about what teachers do and what it takes to be one. You make a 6 year old stay in school from 8-5. Teachers will be working from 7am-7 or 8pm to prep all of those lessons and grade everything needed. How many of you work 12-13 hour days 5 days per week. I'm guessing none.

...ok, easy now.
The alternative idea I put forth is based primarily on the kids/students spending more daily time at school in order to learn more and do more.
The 'teacher's ethic' angle.....is for another thread perhaps.
That said, quick question NGT: how long have you been (professionally) teaching for and at what level please?
All Good.
BP

 

[ngt]

Re: year round school???

...ok, easy now.
The alternative idea I put forth is based primarily on the kids/students spending more daily time at school in order to learn more and do more.
The 'teacher's ethic' angle.....is for another thread perhaps.
That said, quick question NGT: how long have you been (professionally) teaching for and at what level please?
All Good.
BP

They go hand and hand though. You put kids in school for 9 hours, teachers are working at the very least 11 hour days. Someone has to put all of the materials together, grade all of the papers, plan based on assessments, etc etc.. You can't just expect 9 hour days to magically happen with a positive outcome for the students without someone working those 9 hours, as well as planning, prepping, and grading everything done and needed for those 9 hours. Teachers aren't doing that during class. They're teaching during class and doing all of those things before and after school, usually on their own time.

As for the alternative idea of students being in school for 9 hours per day, while excluding the idea of expecting someone to go through 5 1/2 years of college, plus another 1 1/2 years of classes during their career to start at 40k and work 55-60 hour weeks, I still think its a bad idea. IMO, kids wont get to be kids, they'll get burnt out, and hate school in general.

We just lengthened our 2nd grade to 3pm (which is when 3rd-6th always got out) from 2:22 a year ago and they're making it, but I don't see kinder and first graders stretching that day an extra 2 1/2 hours (to 5pm) on top of what they already have. Kids get dropped off at about 7:45 by the bus and picking some up from home as early as 7:00. Our 3pm buses get there about 3:20, Many kids don't get dropped off until after 4pm. You lengthen the day to 5, kids are getting home at 6pm, eating dinner and washing up by 7pm, with some homework added on top, and maybe 30 minutes of TV or something, it's 8pm and time for bed. After getting up at 6am to eat breakfast, get dressed, and ready for school, their day is 14 hours long with maybe a total of 40-60 minutes of play time with recess, before school, and lunch yard time combined. Plus maybe 20-30 minutes of PE if they're lucky. Forget playing outside after school, since its dark by the time you finish dinner. Forget after school sports too. Is that the life you would want for your kids? I know I don't want that for my son.

As for making the extra time after the current school hours P.E., well that really won't help the academic purpose behind lengthening the day in the first place. Remember, this is not about the parents or anything else. We're only talking about the kids here. But, we do currently have Boys and Girls Club working at our school and that goes to 5:30. They have a homework/educational game hour and an hour and a half of outside PE. Its not the entire school, but about 35-40% of our school is enrolled in it. Most of them are in there because parents work later. Even then the kids are pretty burnt out by 5:30. I can't imagine what they would be like if they spent that time at a desk in the classroom working the whole time and going home to homework. We also have basketball teams, flag football, 2 girl volleyball teams, music, a lego robotics club, a Saturday gate program, and a program called Girl's on the Run for 3rd-6th grade girls cross country running. All free programs for the kids. Funded with grants, school fund raising, and private donations. It's actually quite a lot, especially for a school district based in a lower income Hispanic neighborhood.

As for me personally, I'm in my 9th year of teaching lower grades at the elementary level.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: year round school???

So I asked a retired teacher friend of mine today about what she thought about year round schooling. She said the way bigger issue is only 180 days of school. She said to make the most improvement would be to add a lot more days to the school year.

Los Angeles Unified school district has a 40% high school failure rate. Something has to be done differently. We need to hire more qualified teachers for one and get rid of the ineffective ones which of course the unions will have nothing of that.

My ex father in law was a middle school teacher and recently retired. He worked from 8 until 4:00. He was in his laz boy recliner every day by 4:30 sucking down his first of many beers. I asked him how he was able to grade papers or do lesson plans. He said he just had the kids or the teachers aid grade the papers and used the same lesson plans every year.

Not saying every teacher is like him but there is currently no way to get rid of teachers like him. If you get one like him, you are basically screwed.

To make matters worse, when they finally do get a good one they can't keep them. My friend's son went through a Math for America program where they encourage college students with high math skills to enter teaching. They give them scholarships and stipends for the first 3 years they teach with a commitment of at least three years teaching. He loved his first year teaching because he was at a high school and the students loved him. Second and third year he got moved to a junior high because there were not enough teaching spots at the high school anymore because of seniority rules. He basically hates his job now because he teaches middle school where the kids don't care. He is going to go back to school to get his masters and PhD in math or computer science and quit teaching once he completes his commitment. He says the biggest problem is that the district can't fire the under performing teachers. Once a teacher is there for a certain amount of time, you can't fire him. This needs to change. In the REAL world, you get fired for under performing. In the teaching world it doesn't matter. He also says the teacher development days are a big joke. None of the teachers take it seriously at all. He, on the other hand, still takes college courses during the summer. We need more teachers like him but he is leaving because of this status quo mentallity.

I know quite a few teachers. 3 of my cousins are teachers and I play softball with a whole team of them. Almost all of them hate the union and hate giving them money.

 

[ngt]

Re: year round school???

So I asked a retired teacher friend of mine today about what she thought about year round schooling. She said the way bigger issue is only 180 days of school. She said to make the most improvement would be to add a lot more days to the school year.

I agree. I know you don't want to talk politics, but if this thing in Nov. doesn't pass, many schools will be upping class sizes and/or dropping their school year to 160 days, which is bad for the kids.

Los Angeles Unified school district has a 40% high school failure rate. Something has to be done differently. We need to hire more qualified teachers for one and get rid of the ineffective ones which of course the unions will have nothing of that.

Texas has a system that works along those lines a little bit. The better your scores, the more you get paid. Really poor scores get you fired. Not 100% on that, but another teacher at my school has a brother that teaches in Texas and she was explaining it to me the other day. I'd worry that this would lead to cheating, but I'm sure they have some sort of system in place to catch people doing this.

My ex father in law was a middle school teacher and recently retired. He worked from 8 until 4:00. He was in his laz boy recliner every day by 4:30 sucking down his first beer. I asked him how he was able to grade papers or do lesson plans. He just had the kids grade the papers or the teachers aid and used the same lesson plans every year.

Its a lot tougher to get away with that in the lower grades at the elementary school level. There's a lot more prep than just pulling out a lesson plan, a lot of the teaching is based off of assessments, so the year is always somewhat different, and I don't get a teacher's aid. lol

He says the biggest problem is that the district can't fire the under performing teachers. Once a teacher is there for a certain amount of time, you can't fire him. This needs to change. In the REAL world, you get fired for under performing. In the teaching world it doesn't matter. He also says the teacher development days are a big joke. None of the teachers take it seriously at all.

That's not true. The myth of magical "tenure" is so blown out of proportion. If you get a number of consecutive bad reviews, you can be fired. That is in the California tenure law. The problem comes up when a teacher fights it and a school district has to pay legal fees to fight the union backing the teacher.

What admin does to avoid this, is to make your job so unbearable that you'll leave on your own. I've seen it happen. Kinder teacher with a bad leg stuck in the furthest portable, turning in daily lesson plans and post day reports, with 35 6th graders (25 of them boys). Leave requests denied for teachers that aren't liked, in hopes that they'll just "leave". It can get nasty and I've only seen it result in a teacher quiting. Even if the boss lady has to write a letter of recommendation to get them to walk. Also, schools have probationary periods where they can just not hire a teacher back. Our district is 2 years, but another near us is 3 and some are 5 years.

Also, our last teacher's development day was based on our new ELD program and it was fantastic. I've implemented a dozen things in my classroom between this last training and our last Rick Morris training a year or so ago. Then again, I've been to horrible trainings that were a complete waste of time. Also, budget cuts have taken away our professional development days. We have an hour block on Wednesdays designated to meetings, trainings, etc.. Trainings are just broken up into 4 consecutive Wednesdays, instead of paying teachers to go before contract days start or pulling them out of their classroom with substitutes.

I know quite a few teachers. 3 of my cousins are teachers and I play softball with a whole team of them. Almost all of them hate the union and hate giving them money.

lol!! Unions are a bit like the police. Folks talk about how they don't like them, until they need them.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: year round school???

I am not saying there is official tenure but there basically is unwritten tenure because of the union and I believe you agree with that based on your next few sentences. Teachers, especially older ones will always fight because of the retirement issues and the unions back them to the hilt. I believe you agree with that too.

So then are we in agreement that the union is overall bad for the students' education?

 

[bruceb58]

Re: year round school???

I agree. I know you don't want to talk politics, but if this thing in Nov. doesn't pass, many schools will be upping class sizes and/or dropping their school year to 160 days, which is bad for the kids.

Just cut the crazy pensions and we will be fine. We have a state legislature that spends like a drunken sailer. Even nutcase Jerry Brown wants to do it to some extent.

Prop 30 needs to fail for the future welfare of the state.

 

[ngt]

Re: year round school???

Just cut the crazy pensions and we will be fine. We have a state legislature that spends like a drunken sailer. Even nutcase Jerry Brown wants to do it to some extent.

Prop 30 needs to fail for the future welfare of the state.

I am beginning to doubt you know any teachers or policemen, if you are voting against this. The ADA (money to school per student) will drop by over $400 per kid if this doesn't pass. The school year, instead of just dropping to 175 from 180 like it has in most schools, will be able to drop to 160. You talk about wanting to get students educated with year round school, but want children to get 2-3 weeks less of school per year than they already have?

Also, I don't agree that unions are a bad thing. If there weren't unions, people like teachers, firemen, nurses, and policemen would all get screwed. Without a union, teachers jobs get worse and pay would down. Then these qualified people, like your friend's son , would go into other professions and the quality of teachers would go down. This would result in a worse education for the students. So, imo, unions are good for the education of students.

I've witnessed enough poor treatment of quality teachers over personal differences by administration to know that not all of those "unions backing a teacher" moments are a bad thing. I think districts can get rid of teachers they don't like without going through that stuff. They have in the past. I've seen it.

Also, this conversation is getting way off topic again and I've got to get up in 5 hours for work.