Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

ZmOz

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

My basic question is why in the current market, which is far larger than the market that supported Ford, Chrysler and GM back in the 60's and 70's, is there no room for more than one engine manfacturer who doesn't even put most of their engines in their current crop of autos. <br />
The problem is the Hemi doesn't offer anything that isn't already available. If I was buying a new boat, and the choices were a 350hp hemi or a 350hp GM engine, I'd take the GM simply because they've already proven themselves to be very, very good in a marine environment. Gas mileage is also a big concern in boats - I don't know if dodge is worse because of the engine or the overal design of the truck, but if it's because of the engine that's a BIG negative in the marine market. If the Hemi had more HP, or displacement, or better gas mileage, then there would be a reason to buy it...but it doesn't. Even Ford wasn't able to make much of a profit doing this...that's why they don't have marine engines anymore. I think Toyota tried it too, and failed.
 

f_inscreenname

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

I think also has to do with the after market. Even thought they would make the motor they would have to get there suppliers (dist, carb,elect, etc) to maranize there parts also. I own a Chrysler and finding parts for it is harder and harder. One major piece comes to mind is the exhaust manifolds. Besides the cast iron Oscos from the 1960's the only suppliers are "custom made". The infrastructure for Chrysler Marine motors is gone and cost way to much to restart. <br />
2803ea40.jpg
<br /> Chrysler 360. Some of us are trying to keep them alive.
 

BoatBuoy

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

This discussion begs another different question. Chrysler was established in the marine market in the '60's and '70's with their V-8's. Why did they loose their market share? I don't think it was because their product was particularly inferior. Maybe their marketing strategy?<br /><br />EDIT: Ah, now it comes to me. They rolled back their marine participation when they nearly went bankrupt and the gubment had to bail them out. Remember Lee Iacocca?
 

POINTER94

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

Hemi does offer something that isn't already offered, a choice. In fact GM will begin to have problems with logistics on units due to reduced production runs (velocity reduction) and more than likely ageing cores for the components. When trying to stand out you need to try and work an angle. And if you are out there trying to compete with Bayliner who can get 20% under you no matter what you do, having a different powerplant would be a salesmans dream. And a manufacturers dream. Unless you are brunswick. How do you think it feels to be Genmar and having to support your competitors number one partner. Let me tell you they would bend over backwards to work with anyone else. This is the type of opportunity real entrepenaurs drool over. It is the infrastructure that I am sure is preventing it. All the schools train to the GM product. Getting the dealer network in place is the challenge. The other challenge is getting the parts and factory support network in place. Not all that difficult given the resources available. You may not be old enough to remember but chrysler was all over GM years ago in this market. What happens sometimes is companies can fold even profitable sectors of a company due to a variety of situations. Cash flow issues, untimely capital requirements, even change in philosophy at the top can shut down perfectly good divisions. Now based on back side rebate programs so prevalent in todays marketplace a lack of a complete line can inhibit this success, but that is why I targeted companies in my previous posts that are primarily V8 or larger engine users. 100% product penetration to key OEM's will eliminate the impact of the backside sales dollars.<br /><br />Product features and benefits go well beyond the net horsepower. Profile, servicability, ease of installation, delivery, terms, buy back programs, replacement cost for wear parts, and in todays market ease of modification is key. Add this into the mix, how about front end costs?<br /><br />Toyota had a failed model as they attempted to attack the boat market and not just the engine supplier market. In this way they incurred the costs of development, construction, distribution network, in a field they had little or no experience in. In addition they went after the ski boat market. Not one you want to break into with a low displacement V8. The hemi is a 5.9L I believe the toyota was a 4.8. And without the history in the industry it wasn't the best model ever created. Also the 5.7l chevy is smaller than the 5.9l in displacement and that is the clearly the key small block market. They also make a 5.2l vs the chevy 5.0L. They match up everywhere they need to in the V8 market. And they match up in the V10 market. It is in the 4 and 6 cylinder market they come up short in.<br /><br />Added: Look at the 360 listed above, there are lots of them out there and you could begin to resupport the older models in what is clearly a captive audience.
 

RubberFrog

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

Originally posted by ZmOz:<br /> The street 6.0L is 345hp/380ft lbs...still more than Dodge. <br /> [
An all aluminum motor available only in the vette... OK, I get it... you're a Dodge hater.
 

ZmOz

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

Originally posted by RubberFrog:<br />An all aluminum motor available only in the vette... OK, I get it... you're a Dodge hater.
No, the corvette 6.0L is 400hp/400ft lbs. ;) I don't hate dodge at all, I'm just defending my original point Dodge doesn't have more HP than anybody else.
 

--GQ--

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

Originally posted by RubberFrog:<br /> The hemi in my truck makes 345 horse and 375 lbs of torque. I agree that dodge is overhyping the hemi, but let's not sell it short just because you don't like dodge.<br /><br />The chevy 5.3 makes 295/330 and the 6.0 makes 300/360. How do you figure that stacks up to the hemi?
Hemi is to a dodge where as SS is to a chevy. A Hemi badged dodge truck should be compared to a SS badged chevy truck to be to be fair.
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

I think it is nice that around 80% of all marine engines are GM made.<br /><br />It keeps the prices down and you have a better chance that a part is in stock.<br /><br />Can you imagine the wharehousing problems if there were 4 engine makers.<br /><br />Ken
 

POINTER94

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

Ken,<br /><br />Competition keeps prices down..... Recent stories outline GM's high overhead costs and those are far more easily hid in the marine market where there is virtually no competition vs. the automotive market where pricing is scruitinized every day by tens of thousands of people. Don't you find it interesting that the 5.3l which is now their workhorse isn't marketed through the marine channel? Mainly the 5.7 or the 5.0 which they no longer use in the automotive market that I am aware of. Inventory costs would be no greater than those who service outboards where there are many, many more competitors. In addition, as these are marinized versions of automotive engines, most parts will be available at the local NAPA store.<br /><br />I don't really give a rip one way or the other, I have the ol' 350 in my rig. Runs great.
 

QC

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

I post a link to a currently available Chrylser marine engine and nothin', zippo, nada. Maybe you guys need a pretty picture :D <br /><br />
engine.jpg
 

RubberFrog

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

Sorry QC. We got distracted by the hemi myth.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

I'm not nit pickin. But that is a Mopar engine that has been marinized not a Marinized Mopar engine. But here is a perfect example of how the line would work within the industry. Heck, someone already did the engineering. And QC is right, it is pretty.. :D <br /><br />This shows that the product line is adaptable to the marine market. I would like to see a factory effort to capture a market segment. Wouldn't it be fun to watch some of those offshore races being described as GM powered vs. Chrysler powered? Sort of like NASCAR? What wins on Sunday sells on Monday..... ;) ;)
 

QC

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

The Ilmor deal is the same business model as Mercruiser :confused: Available for order in a 550 and 625. Why it works IMHO is that they can command the unit price to make it worthwhile. I bet these packages are near $100K. For what you guys are thinking about, an existing player would have to engineer products to compete with what they have already engineered. This is why you don't see the 5.3. They already have a 5.0 and a 5.7. What does the 5.3 bring to the party? Let alone bring in another engine manufacturer. And why would they care if there is nobody else willing to spend the bucks and cause competitive pressure? So it would seem to me that they (Chrylser) would need a new player.<br /><br />Sales and Marketing "It would be really cool if we had a Marine engine division"<br /><br />Finance "Who are we gonna sell them to?"<br /><br />Sales and Marketing "Well we'll have to help get these little guys over here get started by pumping in some cash and absorbing the engineering costs, oh, oh, and we'll need to help them with an advertising campaign, and then build a dealer network."<br /><br />Finance "How many are you gonna sell?"<br /><br />Sales and Marketing "Well we'll actually have to give some away and then first year we project we'll sell 10. But have you seen the cool logo?"<br /><br />Finance "Hmmm, let me think about it . . . eh, how many again? Ten? Hmmm . . . . No, but can I keep that hat?"<br /><br />Not carping on the idea as this is the kinda stuff I pitch to our guys, but they will fail to see the immediate return. You would need somebody like Bombardier to enter and offer a directly competitive line with somebody like Chrylser giving them the branding benefits that Pointer describes. Now wait a minute, that could work . . . hmmmmmmm.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

Exactly QC,<br /><br />How about a deal with Volvo/Penta? Every V8 sold with a vp would get a mopar? How about partnering up with Yamaha who is rumored to reintroduce their IO. Malibu, Tige', Moomba, Gecko, Sanger, Mastercraft, Donzi with surface drives, or any other High performance boat not affiliated with Brunswick, any larger inboard boat mfg'r not owned by Brunswick, how about a licensing agreement with Genmar, there are plenty of avenues to introduce this type of product. And your suggestion of Bombardier is perfect, we actually sold them the design of their original jet. It's an old Berkeley design. But they are an incredibly agressive company, and I could see them looking to grow into the prop driven market or even large jet market. But I would be they would want an exclusive.<br /><br />In addition, engineering of an existing product isn't anywhere near as expensive as creating a product. They have the baseline product. These type of modified standard products are created all the time. The key to this marketing idea, it has to work at least as well as existing products. I don't know but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is some kind of drawback to the 5.3 vs. the 5.7. The weight to hp ratio on the 5.3 is better and I am sure that it is a somewhat more efficient design. There may be some kind of electronics issues, low end grunt, something. Velocity drives down costs, and this program adds costs to both models. But with the captive market they have, there is no downside to the cost of the 5.7 or any other "obsolete" engine.<br /><br />Check this out: How many of these have you seen? Got a friend who knows the orginators of this system and they are making money hand over fist.<br /><br /> http://www.marine-power.co.uk/4lha series.htm
 

bayman

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

I'm gonig to agree with Pointer94 in that GM just plain makes so many blocks that they can do it for a good, low price. Think about all the marine engines out there that are made from GM blocks - MerCruiser for starters. Price and value.
 

TwoBallScrewBall

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

Hey rubber frog,<br /><br />The 6.0 GM motor makes 345hp/380ftlb. <br /><br />Also, the 295hp 5.3 silverado outruns the hemi dodge ram to 60 and in the 1/4 mile. The 6.0 just makes it that much worse.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

actually there is a current program from mercrusier and chysler to marinize the V-10. I hope the current gasoline issue does not finnish it off. while ford now owns volvo it has no affliation with volvo marine. it was sold off several years back and ford owns the volvo automotive label.<br /> chysler bailed out in the early 80;s but had marinized both 318's, the 225 slant six, the 360, 400,413,426 and 440 and most likly a few more here and there.<br />they had some odd inboard companies and a brief foray into the sterndrive market.<br /> ford bailed out of the marine market about 95. in the early 90's I was chatting with a GM rep at a boat show. we were discussing the marine VS auto sides. he told me that 90% of all engine warrenty claims came from the marine side with very few from the auto side.<br /> its a matter of costs.<br />if 15% of your sales are generating 90% of your warrenty claims there is a problem.<br /> when merc warrenties that GM built motor they charge it back to GM. if GM decides it was a GM defect they pay up.<br />so with chysler,mitsubishi,toyota,ford,volvo and GM making marine packages in the 70's and 80's for the US market the sales volume VS the administrative costs thinned the herd. even BMW jumped in for 2 years or so. even renuelt tried it in the late sixties early 70's.<br /><br /> in any event it will be interesting to see if another manufacturer will attempt to jump back into the marine market and compete with GM.<br /> but its a low volume high cost market to get into.<br />a few years back I replaced both 5.7 mercs in a 33 bayliner due to tuliped valves at about 40-50 hours, the problem was the selling dealer had seriously overpropped it and the WOT was about 3400 instead of 4600 or so.<br /> was that a merc issue? a GM issue or a dealer issue. merc sent a pair of engines but somebody someplace absorbed it.<br />one enigne let go between new jersey and Virginia and the other let go just south of coinjock NC. the boat was towed to manteo and the fun began. mad customer,mad merc warrenty folks, and a mad marina owner. I think I was the only one left smiling.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

Thanks rodbolt,<br /><br />That makes alot of sense. And knowing chrysler is dabbling is interesting.<br /><br />Warranty can make or break yea. Sounds like it really isn't GM's fault for most of them. But this is the type of answer I was lookin for.
 

BoatBuoy

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

Off topic, but it's good to see you back rodbolt. Been missing you on J/E forum as well.
 

RubberFrog

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Re: Why no Chryslers in the marine world anymore?

Originally posted by Stiff Nibbles:<br /> Hey rubber frog,<br /><br />The 6.0 GM motor makes 345hp/380ftlb. <br /><br />Also, the 295hp 5.3 silverado outruns the hemi dodge ram to 60 and in the 1/4 mile. The 6.0 just makes it that much worse.
Since we're bringing bigger engines into the mix.... how about this one:<br /><br />8.3 liter V10 engine 500 horsepower @ 5,600 RPM and 525 pounds-feet of torque @ 4,200 RPM. That's what's in the Ram SRT.<br /><br />As far as the 5.3 silverado.... yeah right! I'm still laughing. Maybe an SS with the 4.10's in the back.<br /><br />If you want to compare the SS you really need to put it against the SRT to be realistic.
 
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