Why an increase in engine horsepower will hurt your ‘holeshot’, acceleration and midrange cruising.

QBhoy

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Jeez. I might have to admit to agreeing with you here chris 😂. Exactly my issue on the campion. The way she has been set up, all the power is above 4000 rpm. So despite being a rocket ship with lots of pitch...in her quickest form, she is almost unusable down low and terrible everywhere but top end. So 99% of the time, she runs a pitch comprise that will always hit the limiter...but much happier cruising and getting by at acceleration. Not worth having her propped to full on top end, only to suffer everything else. I only rarely do it to prove a point 😂
 

Kev Paley

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Ok lets start again I'm not trying to get more speed or more power.

I just would like to know where I can get a 350 holley carburetto and the adapter to fit it and if anyone has done this before isnit hard to fit?

I'm just chasing reliability in the carburettor as when the engine is running it already runs really well.

Thanks!
 

tank1949

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So you want more horsepower, who doesn’t? But this is why an increase in top end power is actually a very bad idea in a boat.

You’re off shopping for more horsepower. You buy a set of higher compression pistons, a ‘lumpier’ camshaft, a set of roller lifters and higher ratio roller rockers, better valve springs, and a bigger carb to feed the beast.

You spend many dollars on getting the block machined and maybe even splash for a new set of vortec heads. If not the vortec, you have the old heads machined, ported and polished, and a single plane manifold to squeeze out the last horsepower that engine can produce.

You’ve assembled the engine with all the meticulous care and cleanliness you could muster, and now it’s in the boat. The drive is on and you have to select a propeller. And here’s where reality takes a great big bite.

Engine power is a trade-off. For a given engine capacity, without adding forced induction, increasing the maximum output usually entails 2 things. Firstly, that extra power comes on at a higher rpm. Secondly, that extra top end horsepower is at the cost of low- and mid-range horsepower. Ultimately you have produced an engine with a SMALLER usable rev range. Not only that, because there is SO much power at the top end, you need to increase the propeller pitch to keep the maximum revs in check, and that adds more load to the engine throughout the entire rev range, not just at the top. So now you have an engine producing LESS power low- and mid-range, but being asked to push a bigger (more pitch) propeller.

So, ignoring all that, you change the prop from a 17” to a 21”, because that’s what the calculations say the engine will need to inhibit over-revving. Let’s go back and ask why you wanted more power… Because the boat wasn’t getting out of the water quick enough, or you wanted to reduce the mid-range cruising revs.

So there you are with your shiny new high power mill ticking away. Everything sounds great, and you drop it into gear. The boat starts moving and you, with a massive smile on your face, drop the hammer. With all that extra horsepower you’re expecting it to launch like a Polaris missile. As the engine struggles up to 3,000rpm far slower than it ever did before, you’re wondering what you did wrong. Where did you mess up? Is the timing out, is there not enough advance, maybe the fuel mixture’s too weak? Well, the answer is ‘none of the above’, you just messed up the power and torque curves, and didn’t understand how engines in boats actually work.

Why your boat is now even more of a dog than before is actually all contained in the above, but to break it down to the simplest, UNLIKE A CAR, in order to get to the top end horsepower, you need to move through the low- and mid-ranges first, and you produced an engine with LESS power in those ranges, and then to kneecap it completely, you added a steeper prop! Just like trying to take off from the lights in 3rd gear.

Let’s face it, 90% of boating is done in the mid-range, and those skiing really want quick acceleration. Building up a fire-breathing dragon is not the way to achieve those targets. For better acceleration, and better mid-range cruising, you actually want an engine with less power at the top, and more power low down. Marine engine suppliers worked for a long time with the goal of achieving the best possible power package with the most usable rev range, and that’s why a marine 350 doesn’t make as much top end as most people think it should. Yes of course a 350 can be built up to make in excess of 450hp, but it’s all at 6,000rpm+, and the low and mid-range are rubbish! Completely useless in a boat.

The only acceptable way to achieve the goal of ‘more power’ for better acceleration and cruising is by increasing the capacity of the engine, and it’s far better to increase stroke than bore.

The alternative way to get better acceleration and mid-range cruising from the existing engine is to drop a prop size. Simple as that. Yes the engine will turn faster for any given boat speed, but it’ll be loaded less (so the throttle won‘t be opened as far for the same rpm), the load on the drive gears will also be less, and you’ll experience less rpm variation between running up and down the ocean swells.

So, the next time someone says “I need more power”, ask them why, then smile quietly and understand that they likely know less about how engines in boats work than you do.

Chris….
Good explanation!!! And, most people do not factor in safety with too much HP than the boat can handle. I have personally witnessed careless show-off captains submarining in dangerous seas.
 

poconojoe

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Thanks for that explanation!
Very informative and makes perfect sense!
So many boat owners claiming they need more power, not knowing they are making things worse by building "improvements " into their engines.
 

Mcfltfyter

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The real question is if there are torque gains to be had in a cam swap due to advertising HP numbers.
 

Scott06

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Does this apply to jet drives? It seems like a jet would "slip" like a clutch and let you get rpms up easier. Yes I am totally ignorant of jet drives.
Depends on the impeller in the pump in combo with engine and hull I swap the Solis in place of the damaged and tell her on my Sea-Doo JetSki and I get better hole shot but the red stone cold quite as high which tells me I don’t have enough power to swing a impeller with more bite on the top end
 

Scott06

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The real question is if there are torque gains to be had in a cam swap due to advertising HP numbers.
Depends on the cam the hall it is pushing in the engine. As Bondo stated a typical hot rod cam doesn’t work in the boat because it doesn’t have enough torque to push the boat through the water if you have a typical aftermarket marine/RV/towing Cam yes you can get a few more ponies But if the Cam doesn’t make enough power down low you’ll never be able to get the whole moving enough to take it vantage of the topend power Because there is no transmission on a boat
 

Mcfltfyter

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Depends on the cam the hall it is pushing in the engine. As Bondo stated a typical hot rod cam doesn’t work in the boat because it doesn’t have enough torque to push the boat through the water if you have a typical aftermarket marine/RV/towing Cam yes you can get a few more ponies But if the Cam doesn’t make enough power down low you’ll never be able to get the whole moving enough to take it vantage of the topend power Because there is no transmission on a boat
You grouped the marine and rv cam together, are you saying they are typically identical? If so, the RV cam is already pretty flat on top and I probably wouldn't want any less overlap or duration than the RV cam. I'm not sure what you mean about getting more "ponies" (HP I assume) out of a marine cam, since marine engines come stock with the marine cam.
 

Bondo

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You grouped the marine and rv cam together, are you saying they are typically identical? If so, the RV cam is already pretty flat on top and I probably wouldn't want any less overlap or duration than the RV cam. I'm not sure what you mean about getting more "ponies" (HP I assume) out of a marine cam, since marine engines come stock with the marine cam.
Ayuh,..... Marine, Rv, 'n truck cams typically make power from idle to 5500 rpms,......
That's exactly what ya need in a boat,.....

Hot rod cams typically just move the torque band higher in the rpm range to gain horsepower, like 1500 to 6500 rpms, which is iseless in a boat,....
 

Scott Danforth

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I agree that stock Marine, RV and Truck cams are normally the same. in many cases identical part numbers

however, there can be improvements in low and mid-range torque. this is usually done by lift and lobe profile. to make the most of any cam change, you much match intake runner / plenum volume as well. the intake must match the cam (most people skip this step)

As indicated above, most "hot rod" cams give up low end for upper RPM breathing. much of this is done with overlap which helps in scavenging which is great in a track car or a drag car, however is not what you want in a boat with wet exhaust as the reversion will take out your motor before you idle out of the marina, and if not, the performance will suffer with one or two exceptions. if you want to build a high-RPM screaming motor for a boat, you would need a jet boat with dry exhaust. Jet boats live for high RPM screaming motors because at low speed there is lots of slip from the impeller which drops as the RPM's increase. Jet boats normally have above transom dry exhaust to allow them to run high over-lap cams. the other is the RLP project triple digits (hundreds of thousands of dollars spent to get an I/O boat to the triple digits) which also had dry exhaust.

a typical I/O drive is designed to spin to 5500 RPM max. this is due to the oiling design and the bearings. Early AQ series volvo drives can be spun higher because of their gear pump in the main vertical shaft, however you must go thru the drive first.
 

Mcfltfyter

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I looked for specs on mercruiser cams, and that is a muddy abyss. The fact that you all are saying marine/truck/RV, tells me the cam isn't very critical. A truck cam is good for what, 1600 to 5500 while an RV cam is good from idle to 4400? That is a significant difference in a truck, but I'll assume it's not too noticeable in a boat. Thanks
 

achris

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I looked for specs on mercruiser cams, and that is a muddy abyss. ..
I've spent HOURS looking for Mercruiser cam specs. Haven't found anything. However, I have a friend with a couple of 350s that we'll be pulling out this winter (just coming into winter here) and building up as 383s (yes @Scott Danforth , it's STILL 'about to happen' 🤦). I plan on doing a read on the camshafts when I reinstall them, and I'll publish the specs right here first. :)

... if you want to build a high-RPM screaming motor for a boat, you would need a jet boat with dry exhaust. Jet boats live for high RPM screaming motors because at low speed there is lots of slip from the impeller which drops as the RPM's increase. ..
Interestingly I work with a guy who, with his wife, races jet boats. We were discussing this very thread when I first wrote it, and he told me his wife has a great feel for engines and boats, and she's mentioned a few times about one particular engine they have. It's a 450hp 383. Apparently the other engine they have for her boat is a 520hp 350. She says the 450hp engine out-performs the 520hp every day of the week! She almost never opts for the 520 unless it's a dead straight course. Anything like a track (and most jet boat racing is done around a course) and she says the 450hp engine is better off the mark and will get her to the next 'waypoint' quicker than the 520hp, and that's born out in the lap times... Just thought that was interesting.
 

79Invader

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Nice post, Chris.... This really comes down to how little understanding people have on torque vs hp.... HP is the flashy number, but torque is the number that actually matters (especially in a boat)...

Hot rod cams marginally (if at all) increase usable torque, they simply move it to a higher RPM so you can suck more HP out of it (useless in a boat).

HP is how FAST work can be done. Torque is how MUCH work can be done.
 

achris

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Nice post, Chris.... This really comes down to how little understanding people have on torque vs hp.... HP is the flashy number, but torque is the number that actually matters (especially in a boat)...

Hot rod cams marginally (if at all) increase usable torque, they simply move it to a higher RPM so you can suck more HP out of it (useless in a boat).

HP is how FAST work can be done. Torque is how MUCH work can be done.
I think it goes one step further than that. It's what's called the 'usable rev range' the wider and lower that range, the better for a boat. (And a street car)

Chris...
 

todhunter

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I think it goes one step further than that. It's what's called the 'usable rev range' the wider and lower that range, the better for a boat. (And a street car)

Chris...
In the turbocharged 4-cylinder game, we call it "area under the curve". The more useable (and fun...and faster on the street) car is the one that makes less HP but has a flatter power curve, as opposed to the one that makes a really high peak HP number but the turbo doesn't light until really late, so the power curve is a shallow slope with a big spike at the end. Dyno graphs easily illustrate this concept, but most folks are still just "wowed" by big HP numbers and that's all they think they want.
 

Mcfltfyter

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I'm definitely interested what chris finds with a degree wheel. I just can't help but wonder if mercruiser would sacrifice some usable torque just to be able to advertise a bigger horsepower number. Would they even mess with optimising a cam when it is cheaper and easier to use something off the shelf? HP sells, torque just confuses people.
 

Scott Danforth

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I've spent HOURS looking for Mercruiser cam specs. Haven't found anything. However, I have a friend with a couple of 350s that we'll be pulling out this winter (just coming into winter here) and building up as 383s (yes @Scott Danforth , it's STILL 'about to happen' 🤦). I plan on doing a read on the camshafts when I reinstall them, and I'll publish the specs right here first. :)


Interestingly I work with a guy who, with his wife, races jet boats. We were discussing this very thread when I first wrote it, and he told me his wife has a great feel for engines and boats, and she's mentioned a few times about one particular engine they have. It's a 450hp 383. Apparently the other engine they have for her boat is a 520hp 350. She says the 450hp engine out-performs the 520hp every day of the week! She almost never opts for the 520 unless it's a dead straight course. Anything like a track (and most jet boat racing is done around a course) and she says the 450hp engine is better off the mark and will get her to the next 'waypoint' quicker than the 520hp, and that's born out in the lap times... Just thought that was interesting.
Chris, if you look at post #1 in the sig, one of the first few links covered me swapping cams. in there is the mercruiser cam specs.

regarding the 383 vs the 350. the 383 will have much more torque than the high RPM 350. your friend and his wife would need to have different impeller trims. you would want the impeller a bit looser with the high RPM 350

regarding your bud's stroker build. did his admiral approve the budget? LOL Im here to help. however not holding my breath..... (you and I would have long been dead - LOL)
 

Scott Danforth

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torque.jpg

HP is generally how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you move the wall when you hit it.

In the marine world, one must know the prop curve as well as the engine torque curve. been that way since the propeller was first turned by men with a manual crank. they need to match
 
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