Who ever thought those green porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

MTboatguy

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Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

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Wow! Horrible tutorial since it doesn't talk once about make sure its filled to 80%. Accident waiting to happen.

Then Bruce, DON'T do it, many of us have been doing it for many years now, and guess what, if I get toasted, then then it is my responsibility and don't conform to those live in the "Peoples Republic of California"

Yes, this thread got off track and Dip, used a propane torch to light a BBQ and got blowed up, so what, they did the wrong thing and paid for it.

So be it, lets get on with life, people make stupid mistakes every single day of the year, a few pay the ultimate price, as this one did!
 

MTboatguy

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Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

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I'm torn on this one. If the label says not to refill it, then don't do it. Error on caution........ If you're one that's been doing it for years, have at it. If you've never done it before, I'd think twice. At $3 a tank is it really worth taking a chance?.....


There are a lot of things labels say now a days, because no one wants to take responsibility, I am not going to depend on the Government to tell me what is safe and what is not safe, sorry, just the way I am.
 

WIMUSKY

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Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

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Yes, I feel a $3 dollar tank is worth the chance, if you know what you are doing.

That's the key, "if you know what your doing". But a first timer, maybe not so much.....
 

MTboatguy

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Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

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That's the key, "if you know what your doing". But a first timer, maybe not so much.....

WIM

No where did I recommend a first timer fill there own tanks, but just remember, no matter what we do in life, we were all first timers once.

Ultimately, it is up to the individual, and NEVER set a canister with highly flammable gas that expands very fast close to a BBQ! The label also says, do NOT expose to open flames, cinders or high temps!
 
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WIMUSKY

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Hey MT, I'm not implying that you did, sorry if there was any misunderstanding. I'm just saying 1st timers should really think it thru first before trying it. If they decide to go for it, then so be it......
 

bassman284

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Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

I am not sure about the green tanks but we used the cheap long blue ones in the injection molding industry. Each operator used a propane torch to burn plastic on the molds. Those little tanks were refilled over and over and over in the plant. We refilled them from a 20# cylinder in a designated area. Went through several OSHA inspections without a hitch.

Interesting. I retired in 2010 from a plant that did a lot of injection molding, among other things. We had ~40 presses from 400 to 3000 tons. We had those blue bottles all over the place with the ignitor nozzles. We didn't refill them as far as I know and I'm pretty sure I'd know, although maybe not. I'm going to mention this to my friends who still work there and are constantly being beat over the head to come up with cost savings. If there's a safety problem with that, I'll find out pretty soon.
 

generator12

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Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

When any gas is compressed to the point of liquification, the pressure within the container will depend soley on the temperature. A given volume of liquid propane (or butane, or CO2, etc.) will maintain that pressure even if the volume of the container holding it doubles or triples, as long as there is still liquid in the container and the temperature is held constant. As gas is discharged for use, the pressure will decrease as a function of the temperature reduction resulting from the decompression. Once original temperature is re-established, the container will be back to the original pressure regardless of the fact that there is less gas in it. This will be the case until enough gas has discharged that all the liquid in the container has evaporated, at which point the pressure will decrease (usually rapidly) if more gas is removed.

I would guess that the "do not fill beyond 85%" rule is to prevent discharging liquid when using the container. It wouldn't be a pressure concern unless the container were completely filled - no head space - in which case increasing temperature would expand the liquid and could burst the container.
 
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bigdee

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Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

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Interesting. I retired in 2010 from a plant that did a lot of injection molding, among other things. We had ~40 presses from 400 to 3000 tons. We had those blue bottles all over the place with the ignitor nozzles. We didn't refill them as far as I know and I'm pretty sure I'd know, although maybe not. I'm going to mention this to my friends who still work there and are constantly being beat over the head to come up with cost savings. If there's a safety problem with that, I'll find out pretty soon.

Nice to hear from someone who has worked in the same industry. I also retired in 2010. We had a small area inside the plant supply room that was labeled as "1 Lb propane cylinder filling station". In that area there was a 20Lb cylinder inverted on a table with the appropriate OSHA mandated warning signs. The operators would sign for a re-filled cylinder stored on a shelf and the store room attendant would refill the empty one. In a large injection molding plant a leaky 1 lb cylinder would not be a real risk anyway. Our plant had many open flame LP burners and many LP forklifts so the smell of propane once in awhile was not unusual.
 

Tim Frank

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Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

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There are a lot of things labels say now a days, because no one wants to take responsibility, I am not going to depend on the Government to tell me what is safe and what is not safe, sorry, just the way I am.
And there in lies the crust, we all have the right to self determination, we all do things that others may think are risky.

The problem with that thinking is that it ignores the possible impact on others (say, within 100 feet?) that might result from your decision.
You are putting a lot of faith in the integrity of a mass- and cheaply-produced container.

My scuba tanks have to be opened and visually inspected every year....and hydrostatically tested every 5. They DO have to withstand a much higher operating pressure, but are also correspondingly much better built.
I might be able to find someone who would ignore laws and fill them for me, and I could save the cost of the tests; but that would put others at risk, sorry that's just the way I am.... :)

Wonder if the guy who killed his wife (from Bruce's post) still thinks that $3- saving was worth it?
 

matt167

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Re: Who ever thought those green porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

I have refilled them many times. The fill adapter is only a couple bucks at just about any hardware. That part is really no big deal, as it's only illegal to transport and who would know anyway... However, it's a major PITA because you can over fill them easy ( that IS dangerous ), and it's a pretty big hassle to hook it up and refill them.. I buy the twin packs from walmart for a little under $6 now. Not worth refilling anymore

The guy from the news article put a refilled bottle near a heat source to get very hot. Did not matter if it was refilled or not, instructions on the bottle tell you not to do keep it near heat.
 
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MTboatguy

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Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

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The problem with that thinking is that it ignores the possible impact on others (say, within 100 feet?) that might result from your decision.
You are putting a lot of faith in the integrity of a mass- and cheaply-produced container.

My scuba tanks have to be opened and visually inspected every year....and hydrostatically tested every 5. They DO have to withstand a much higher operating pressure, but are also correspondingly much better built.
I might be able to find someone who would ignore laws and fill them for me, and I could save the cost of the tests; but that would put others at risk, sorry that's just the way I am.... :)

Wonder if the guy who killed his wife (from Bruce's post) still thinks that $3- saving was worth it?

Tim,

I inspect my scuba tanks yearly as well as have them hydro'd I hydro my tanks every 3 years.

As this point in time, I will add, I am an inspector for high pressure bottles in the state of Montana, I do inspections on propane tanks, welding tanks, scuba tanks and a host of other types of high pressure vessels.

I am pretty familiar with the programs that concern high pressure vessels and gas bottles.

The original article posted that started this three page thread was more inline with improper handling of propane vessels, As Matt stated in his post, it does not matter if they are refilled or new, if you handle them incorrectly, they are very dangerous and I said that in my first post on this subject. When I refill tanks, nobody is around me, it is done over 150 yards from the house in an outbuilding and my closest neighbor is over a mile away, so if anything were to happen, the risk to others is virtually nil.

It comes down to a term we used in the Military quite often "Acceptable Risk" I know the risk, do what I can to lower the risk and also accept the risk.

It is unfortunate, the title of this thread pretty sums up the problem. To many people can purchase items that are very dangerous and handle them improperly which can result in injury or death, as the OP said in his posting "Who Ever Thought..." Well if you are using these items, it is your responsibility to Know how dangerous they can be and do what you can to NOT put you or your family and friends in jeopardy due to ignorance and mishandling.

With our area being rural as well as a highly popular camping destination for millions from around the country every year, the local game dept is very diligent in making sure that safe handling information is available and publish all the time during the season.
 
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Tim Frank

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Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

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Tim,

I inspect my scuba tanks yearly as well as have them hydro'd I hydro my tanks every 3 years.

As this point in time, I will add, I am an inspector for high pressure bottles in the state of Montana, I do inspections on propane tanks, welding tanks, scuba tanks and a host of other types of high pressure vessels.

I am pretty familiar with the programs that concern high pressure vessels and gas bottles.

The original article posted that started this three page thread was more inline with improper handling of propane vessels, As Matt stated in his post, it does not matter if they are refilled or new, if you handle them incorrectly, they are very dangerous and I said that in my first post on this subject. When I refill tanks, nobody is around me, it is done over 150 yards from the house in an outbuilding and my closest neighbor is over a mile away, so if anything were to happen, the risk to others is virtually nil.

It comes down to a term we used in the Military quite often "Acceptable Risk" I know the risk, do what I can to lower the risk and also accept the risk.

It is unfortunate, the title of this thread pretty sums up the problem. To many people can purchase items that are very dangerous and handle them improperly which can result in injury or death, as the OP said in his posting "Who Ever Thought..." Well if you are using these items, it is your responsibility to Know how dangerous they can be and do what you can to NOT put you or your family and friends in jeopardy due to ignorance and mishandling.

With our area being rural as well as a highly popular camping destination for millions from around the country every year, the local game dept is very diligent in making sure that safe handling information is available and publish all the time during the season.

You are now in civilian life, and the term "acceptable risk" is subject to a very different set of criteria and metrics....and thankfully, scrutiny.
In my work I would be thinking more in terms of continuous risk mitigation, not acceptable losses. :)
You are obviously at the far end of the bell curve in terms of ability to do this reasonably safely, but you are still working with a pretty flimsy piece of steel as a receptacle.....and the basic margin of safety.
As a Government Official in this field, would you do a visual and hydrostatic test on a disposable one pound cylinder for a member of the public so that they could refill it a few more times?

Notwithstanding laws to the contrary...and I have no idea what laws you may or may not have in Montana regarding this practice, I doubt you are really suggesting that as a widespread practice, refilling these cheap, flimsy, and often shoddily manufactured containers is a good idea.

This is a far more appropriate solution to mitigating the cost of 1 lb. cylinders in both an environmentally respectful and an "I support USA initiative and quality" manner, at least IMO.
http://www.mantank.com/pdf/1lbflyer.pdf

A purpose-built container i.e. designed to do the job....a concept in which I believe strongly!

Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry may have said it best...."a man's got to know his limitations". :D
Unfortunately many don't, and I'm sure the guy in Bruce's link is absolutely bewildered.
"I've done this many times before and nothing like this ever happened."
 
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MTboatguy

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Re: Who ever thought those green porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

Tim,

I am not suggesting anyone refill these bottles, I am simply stating, I do and I mitigate the risk involved when I do it. As I said, really this thread is not about refilling bottles, it is about improper handling of these bottles.

To be honest with you, I have been thinking about designing a water tank filling system to mitigate more of the risk, such as we use for filling scuba tanks.

These tanks are not as flimsy as you might think, the company that makes most of them is very well respected, they are a very large manufacture of pressure vessels for all types of applications.
 

Bondo

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Re: Who ever thought those green porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

Ayuh,.... fixed that snafu for ya,... ;)
 

Tim Frank

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Re: Who ever thought those greem porpane cylinders blow up and kill?

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Makes me wonder what would happen at crush depth on these.... They would make lovely little depth charges if rigged correctly! ;)

If they are less than 75% full, they probably float.....like very small rocks.:D
If they did sink to crush depth, they'd implode....some noise, but little else.
 
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