When will we wake up?

[QC]

Re: When will we wake up?

Pretty good thread actually. Flames are minimal, logic is trying to rear it's ugly head . . . Pretty funny if you ask me though that i386 and DWJ make the most sense and most just blew right by . . .

i386 points out that WE are the problem. We hire illegals, which is the great big sucking sound that leads people here. I posted before that it is similar to an invitation. Which I still think it is.

And DWJ notes that we aren't rounding anybody up and sending anybody home. How can anybody rationally believe that we are going to go door to door, put people on busses, trucks, trains, planes and automobiles and send them somewhere. Jeez, we can't even stop arguing about internment camps (yes I know they were citizens). This country's people will NEVER accept reverse concentration camps. Which is what they would be. We would what, just send out the vans? I simply do not get how people think their wishes could actually come true. Think about it!!

QC's plan:

1) BIG penalties for hiring anybody without proper paperwork. Make examples out of some big employers early. Somebody is going to jail. Sorry, tough ship!

2) Limited amnesty for all here now, with a detailed path to citizenship. Yes, it sucks, but we are not gonna pack anybody up and send them home. It will NEVER happen!

 

[woodrat]

Re: When will we wake up?

"BIG penalties for hiring anybody without proper paperwork. Make examples out of some big employers early. Somebody is going to jail. Sorry, tough ship!"

So when Mr. Suburban Homeowner hires someone to mow his lawn and rake the leaves, he needs to check their papers or he goes to JAIL? Sorry, but that sounds way too extremist for me. And un-American to boot.

I really don't think that the problem is so great that we need to start jailing otherwise non-criminal people for making labor arrangements with people whose paperwork isn't straight. Who does this satisfy? American contractors who are annoyed at being undercut by illegal labor? Suburban housewives who feel insecure walking past the mexicans in the Home Depot parking lot? American laborers who are used to not working very hard for $20/hour and now see the mexicans working twice as hard for $12?

Like I said, my friends would much rather hire legal white people for casual labor, but when they go down to the day labor street corner, there are no legal white people there. And the only other option is to find a day labor agency an PAY them a surcharge to provide day labor that still may not be legal. And when your latest white stoner just failed to show up for work and you have a fence that needs finishing that day, or the concrete truck is due at noon, you need some casual labor right now, not next week.

And what if the mexican landscaper shows paperwork that turns out to be bogus? Then what? Is Joe Homeowner required to run down to kinkos with his landscaper and make photocopies of everything, and then keep it in his filing cabinet for three years in case the feds show up to talk to him about who mowed his lawn back in 2004?

And are we going to jail those who hire someone who is legal, but doesn't have a contractor's license allowing them to mow lawns? Where is the enforcement for this going to come from and the $ to pay for it?

Just curious.

 

[QC]

Re: When will we wake up?

woodrat,

Let me restate. You have to stop the magnet. If you can suggest how you stop the hiring of illegals then I can listen. But if you don't stop the draw, they will always find a way in. Maybe you think illegal aliens are OK and believe in a totally open border. I never said send a homeowner to jail, there is no need to overdramatize . . . But let's assume we start enforcing our existing laws. If we simply warn and warn and levy light fines once in a blue moon, nothing will change. Soooooo, at some point somebody has to go to jail, or nothing will change.

If there are suddenly fewer people at the day laborer deal, people will pay more, and then there will be more people at the day laborer deal. And remember, I suggested that we should allow amnesty for those already here, so I'm thinking, at least for a while the same guys will be at the day laborer spot as we didn't pack anybody up and UPS 'em back to Guacamolia. That's a joke BTW, I have nothing against Guacamole :^

 

[woodrat]

Re: When will we wake up?

But if you are going to jail the people who are hiring from the day labor corner...?

And while they did not bust the homeowners, oregon has busted those who mow lawns and do light landscaping without a contractor's license, illegal alien or not. That to me is just plain wrong, and works against people's incentive to make a living.

I guess I'm just more of the mind that people should be free to make contracts amongst themselves without a lot of state interference. I think the informal and illegal day labor market is an important part of the picture, both for people who need that kind of work to get by and for people who need to hire them to get certain jobs done.

I'm not necessarily in favor of a totally open border, but I'm not losing sleep over illegal immigration either and I do work in the building trades for part of the year. It's not like I have a job that is immune from downward wage pressure.

 

[crunch]

Re: When will we wake up?

Woodrat... no license needed to mow lawns in Oregon, or weed flower beds, or rake leaves, or any kind of work where the total, labor and materials is $500.00 or less. Above that figure there are liability issues and contractors are required to have insurance and a bond. This is protection for the consumer, not a bennie for the contractors.

 

[crunch]

Re: When will we wake up?

QC's plan:

1) BIG penalties for hiring anybody without proper paperwork. Make examples out of some big employers early. Somebody is going to jail. Sorry, tough ship!

2) Limited amnesty for all here now, with a detailed path to citizenship. Yes, it sucks, but we are not gonna pack anybody up and send them home. It will NEVER happen!

At least you have a plan, not that I think it would stop the draw... probably increase it.

My plan would have them lining up at the border to go home. 8)

 

[tommays]

Re: When will we wake up?

With my local population just hitting 50% its a bit of a problem

For every person main streaming there are 25 packed in a single family house

The birth rate is insane and most of the mothers work full time and somebodys grandma babysits 15 kids

In general the poverty is just moveing from there to here and the water is a littel cleaner


tommays

 

[woodrat]

Re: When will we wake up?

"Woodrat... no license needed to mow lawns in Oregon, or weed flower beds, or rake leaves, or any kind of work where the total, labor and materials is $500.00 or less. Above that figure there are liability issues and contractors are required to have insurance and a bond. This is protection for the consumer, not a bennie for the contractors."

It is illegal to advertise landscaping services without a license. I remember reading about a sting that the CB set up where they would call people's ads, have them come out to look at the job, and then bust them for not having a license.

 

[crunch]

Re: When will we wake up?

Yup... if they are advertizing Landscaping, they need a license, bond, and liability insurance.... just like you need a license and insurance to drive.... bet the newspaper got a talking to also.

 

[crunch]

Re: When will we wake up?

Again, this is NOT a bennie for the contractors... anyone can get licensed, and that bond and insurance is spendy.

 

[ZmOz]

Re: When will we wake up?

"American laborers who are used to not working very hard for $20/hour and now see the mexicans working twice as hard for $12?

You really need to quit with the "white people don't work" bullshit. The vast majority of white people in this country work VERY VERY VERY hard for VERY little money. There are also lots of mexicans who are on drugs, and don't show up to work, or if they do, they do a terrible job and are nothing but a drain on our economy. White people built this country to be the great place it is today. If it wasn't for us working our asses off this place would still look like Mexico. Dirty, run down, and full of disease. If they work so hard why is their country such a dump?

The reasons Mexicans get hired for these jobs is because they are the only ones who work for less than minimum wage. Even if they are being paid $8/hour, that's less than a legal person making $6/hour for the employer. The reason the mexicans like these cheap jobs is because they send the money back to mexico where you can actually live on that kind of cash.

 

[i386]

Re: When will we wake up?

You really need to quit with the "white people don't work" bullshit. The vast majority of white people in this country work VERY VERY VERY hard for VERY little money. There are also lots of mexicans who are on drugs, and don't show up to work, or if they do, they do a terrible job and are nothing but a drain on our economy. White people built this country to be the great place it is today. If it wasn't for us working our asses off this place would still look like Mexico. Dirty, run down, and full of disease. If they work so hard why is their country such a dump?

The reasons Mexicans get hired for these jobs is because they are the only ones who work for less than minimum wage. Even if they are being paid $8/hour, that's less than a legal person making $6/hour for the employer. The reason the mexicans like these cheap jobs is because they send the money back to mexico where you can actually live on that kind of cash.

The majority of any race of people in the US works very hard for very little money. You'll also find lazy drug addicts in any race.

White people built this country. So did nameless Chinese who built much of our early railroad system. So did black slaves who built a lot of the early south. Immigrant labor has built a significant chunk of things in the recent years. I'm sure there are more. All of these people have contributed to making the US the place it is today.

I've been to Mexico twice. Both times I was amazed at how long and hard the people I saw worked. I was equally amazed at how happy they seemed. They were building another phase of the resort we were staying in. It was a two story building of typical contruction for the area. I never saw a stick of dimensional lumber. It was all stone and concrete. I didn't hear the sound of a single power tool. There were no lifts hoisting the heavy building materials up to the top of the building. They carried everything or used ropes and pulleys. They were up and working at sunrise. As the sun set they put down their tools and hung hammoks right there at the job site. That's where they slept. They were skilled craftsmen and seemed happy enough to me. They always smiled and waved. I have other examples what I saw too. Now granted, I didn't stray too far outside of the tourist areas of Playa del Carmen and Cozumel. The rest of the country may have very well been doing drugs and sleeping the day away. But at least from my perspective, I couldn't conclude the country was in the shape it was in because nobody worked.


In our country, Mexicans will work for less than minimum wage like you said to send it back home. I have a slightly different viewpoint than you though. I question why are employers paying less than minumum wage. I think it's because they know someone (Mexicans) are in a desperate enough situation to do it. I think they're just taking advantage of someone elses bad situation. I think this has gone on so long that the economy actually depends on things working this way. And that's bad. It makes it really difficult to correct the problem without making it worse. Not correcting the problem also makes it worse.

 

[DJ]

Re: When will we wake up?

Both times I was amazed at how long and hard the people I saw worked. I was equally amazed at how happy they seemed. They were building another phase of the resort we were staying in. It was a two story building of typical contruction for the area. I never saw a stick of dimensional lumber. It was all stone and concrete. I didn't hear the sound of a single power tool. There were no lifts hoisting the heavy building materials up to the top of the building. They carried everything or used ropes and pulleys. They were up and working at sunrise. As the sun set they put down their tools and hung hammoks right there at the job site. That's where they slept. They were skilled craftsmen and seemed happy enough to me. They always smiled and waved.

Why on earth did you come back? Sounds like a place of angels building soft things without the desperate power tools of devilish American heathens ruining the rest of the world.

Give me a break. I've been there too. Try going to someplace but a resort. The country is a DUMP and kept that way by crooked politicians.

And I mean dump. Does anyone know where recycled batteries come from? Guess????? They dump the acid on the ground in Mexico and refill them. Then slowly recharge them. Viola! A recycled battery.

Mexico City has the worst air pollutioon of ANY city in the world. LOOK IT UP!

And because of that, I have to put up with ridiculous air pollution restrictions just 400 miles to the North. We are such idiots.

Has anyone seen a catalytic converter on a 737 or an Airbus 319?

 

[i386]

Re: When will we wake up?

I did go though places between the tourist areas. It was a dump. What's your point?

 

[crunch]

Re: When will we wake up?

And because of that, I have to put up with ridiculous air pollution restrictions just 400 miles to the North. We are such idiots.

No we're not, would you like to live with that kind of pollution?

And I mean dump. Does anyone know where recycled batteries come from? Guess?? They dump the acid on the ground in Mexico and refill them. Then slowly recharge them. Viola! A recycled battery.

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if the same thing weren't happening here every time one of the batteries go bad in one of the "La bombba's"

I've seen the way the illegal Mexicans live in this country, just down the road from me... same as what they grew up with.

 

[DJ]

Re: When will we wake up?

Don't paint the whole place as being so wonderful. If it were, the population wouldn't be killing themselves trying to get to a "self proclaimed" heathen nation as ours.

The rush to the border is going North (no, not Canada), not south. There is a very good reason for that.

 

[Plainsman]

Re: When will we wake up?

Some Americans have a short attention span, they will not wake up until another attack occurs within the USA. I know the libs call that a scare tactic, but unfortunately that is what it will take. . :'(

 

[i386]

Re: When will we wake up?

I painted no such picture. My post was simply a response to ZmOz where he said "If they work so hard why is their country such a dump?" I don't have anything against power tools. Hell, I have plenty of my own. I just brought that up to reinforce the fact they they were working hard. I never disputed that the country is in bad shape down there, just ZmoZ's logic as to why.

 

[DJ]

Re: When will we wake up?

Some Americans have a short attention span, they will not wake up until another attack occurs within the USA. I know the libs call that a scare tactic, but unfortunately that is what it will take. .

Some???? Most are clueless and more scary is that most are just plain uninterested.

 

[crunch]

Re: When will we wake up?

And while we are on the subject, 1/2 of the illegal aliens just down the road have their pregnant, or soon to be pregnant wife/ girl friend with them... soon to be giving us another US citizen.

There are many cases of women crossing the border just to have their baby, and another US citizen... and of course you can't kick the parents out with out kicking that new US citizen out.

The law needs to be changed. US citizenship should only go to newborns if BOTH parents are citizens.... and it should be retro-active.

Now, where did I put my bullet proof rain gear...