What would you do???

[mercury1]

Guys, I am in a delima, looking for some advice.<br /><br />Here is the deal.<br />I have a small home based outboard repair shop that I do some business in. Its not large at all, but I have a good enough name that I keep fairly busy throughout the summer. I try to keep it more as a hobby than a business.<br /><br />Last year, a coworker of my wife asked her if I could winterize his boat for him. It is an I/O which normally I dont work on unless of course it is more of a favor, which were the circumstances here. Anyway I changed all the fluids, ran it, checked it over and removed a line from the water pump and forced air through it to blow the water out.<br /><br />Too make a long story short, it froze last winter I guess and popped out a frost plug, so yesterday I spent the day installing a plug. Then he took it home to run it and found water in the oil. I have not looked at it yet to confirm, but it sounds as if the block is cracked.<br />How could there been that much water left in it? It sat for at LEAST 3 months before the first freeze, I would have thought any water that was left would have evaporated? Now he is of course wanting me to replace the engine, in the first place I dont have the money to do, second I have never pulled an I/O motor or do I care to. Third it was just a favor and I charged him VERY little for doing this in the first place.<br /><br />He has full coverage insurance on it, I have no business insurance as I dont do enough business in a years time to justify it.<br />What are my obligations here?<br /><br />Any advice?<br /><br />Thank you so much in advance.

 

[PT]

Re: What would you do???

Merc1 this is just my opinion,I agree evaporation should have taken care of what may have been left in there, i dont see how it could freeze but if it did maybe someone can tell us how it did. I know this is your wifes friend but you did what you thought was right & something went wrong if they cant understand you did all you could & still want you to fix it then i maybe she needs new friends. it could be a gasket leaking & the block is not even cracked. Find the problem 1st, then address the issue, if he expects you to find the problem , then expect professional pay, not hobby pay. my 2cents worth

 

[P.V.]

Re: What would you do???

Well, Merc, based on your description of "removing the water pump line and blowing out the line", I don't think you address'd the standing water in the block or the manifolds. What engine is it?? What "water pump line" did you remove?? A four cylinder Chevy engine has at least one plug on the port side block and at least one on the undereside of the intake/exhust manifold. V-6 and V-8's have two plugs on each side of the block and at least one per manifold, not counting additional ones such as power steering oil cooler,etc.... Compress'd air is not gunna "blow-out" any standing water in these areas. Evaporation is not gunna get "squat" out of these areas.!!!They need to be drain'd. We always remove the plugs, remove certain hoses that don't drain and capture water, probe openings so that rust and scale don't prevent water drainage, and then re-fill the block with RV antifreeze, JUST in case the IS some water not drain'd. Most insurance companies don't cover freeze damage, BUT, you could inquire if his does and offer to pay his deductible??? He knew you weren't really set up to do his boat and he probably didn't pay as much,if at all, what he would have paid if he'd taken it to a reguler shop ??? If you explain'd that you weren't really overly knowledgable ,per say, on this application, You both learn'd something. I think your wife has just lost a "friendly" relationship with her office worker. Her husband has ask'd/demanded satisfaction, But he will not be 100% happy unless you pay for it 100%. Ain't gunna happen. You can't/won't do it. If you were qualified, you would probably do the labor for free, but don't dig this hole any deeper than it is now. Find a middle ground and offer something, but don't let loose with anything that is much over what he paid you for in the first place!!! You did tell him you were not up on the exact methods of working on his motor in the first place, correct??? Good luck!!

 

[GregCC167Concept]

Re: What would you do???

No good deed ever goes unpunished does it? If he's any kind of friend he would understand your side of the story and realize you were doing him a favor to start with. I don't think you should be responsible for anything unless your alleged negligence was malicious. And what would have had to gain by that other than the headache you now are dealing with. I'd tell him if he wants a new engine, go see his insurance rep. At worst case, you pay the deductible.

 

[Lou C]

Re: What would you do???

As PV said with an IO you really have to drain and fill with antifreeze, or you can use a plastic tank with hose attachment for the muffs to have the engine suck up antifreeze with the muffs. I prefer the drain and fill with antifreeze, that way you know for sure that just about all the water is out and the antifreeze will mix with any remaining water to prevent freezing. I also leave the outdrive as far down as I can to make sure it has totally drained, some have drain plugs you should also remove (OMC Cobra) although on mine when I leave the drive down, it drains so well that there was never any water in the holse that these plugs cover.<br />As far as what to do, first you have to see what is really wrong, and then see what it will take to make it right. In retrospect it would have been better to pass on this job, but winterizing IO although more work than an OB, is really not that hard, if the steps in the manual are followed.

 

[kdmiller8251]

Re: What would you do???

WOW!!! This is a rough one, unfortunately I think you crossed the line when you "Charged" him for it...never mind that it was very little. Second if it was an I/O and you removed 1 line I think you did not winterize it correctly.....I know to do my V8 I/O you have to pull a bunch of plugs and lines at they very least... I dont think insurance will cover this, it is a maintenance foul up and they will look at it this way..<br /><br />I would have to say no matter what happens you are gonna eat at least some cost for a new engine if not all of it... I woudl try to go with a 50/50 solution... at the least... If the individual decides to sue you, which I am sure they will since everyone is sue happy nowadays a court would probably find you 100% responsible since you "charged" them.....<br /><br />Its a tough spot to be in, and I feel your pain... Thats one reason why I dont help people out with winterizing their boats cause if anything goes wrong if I charge them or not they will probably come back to haunt you.....<br /><br />Good luck and let us know how it unfolds...<br /><br />Tallman

 

[Bondo]

Re: What would you do???

Unfortunately I'm with Tallman on this 1....

 

[adm]

Re: What would you do???

Tallman and Bondo are correct, you made a mistake, hobby or not, you assumed responsibility for another mans property and it bit you. I paid almost $5000 for a friends caddy engine in 1994. I messed up, did some work I didn't want to do to start with and it cost big-bucks. I learned a hard lesson...<br />good luck.<br /><br />tony

 

[SlowlySinking]

Re: What would you do???

Mercury1, I suggest you go the diplomatic route first, verify the boat yard winterization cost and explain that this was a "PERSONAL FAVOR" and explain to him what a boat yard charges and remind him how cheap you did it as a "PERSONAL FAVOR" and see if you can work out a deal. Remember, he came to you so save money. I quit fixing anything for anybody, no matter what you charge people they expect it yesterday and with a lifetime quarantee on parts and labor. Now when they ask I quote a price equal to what repair shops charge, funny how they suddenly have second thoughts,,,,human nature.

 

[mvaughn]

Re: What would you do???

I have to agree, a bad situation! If I'd paid someone to do this job, I would feel it was their fault! Sorry. It's strange, anytime money changes hands between friends or buddies, the friend or buddy relationship changes right along with it! Try to meet somewhere in the middle. Good luck!

 

[Doug Durako]

Re: What would you do???

Now you know what business insurance is for. There is coverage for this type of problem.<br />I wouldn't run a business without it.<br /><br />Good luck, but you screwed up and should make it right.

 

[P.V.]

Re: What would you do???

Well, my 2 cents again!! I do not believe (as of yet) that you owe him anything, up to this point! Again, did you do this service at a reduced price?? At what cost?? Did this guy come to you and ask if you'd do it as he didn't want to spend the big bucks at the dealer?? Was time a consideration?? Was it gunna freeze that night?? Did you tell him you didn't really work on I/O's?? Did he "push" you to do so??? Did he beg you? Did he help?? I wouldn't pay him a dime!Yet! Just cause you accepted money does not mean you are 100% liable for this problem!! I'm not sure you are liable for 10% of any "bill" either! I sometimes refuse to work on some boats as "I really may not know how to perform that particular aspect of that engine repair". But if the customer begs, pleads, offers up his wife, triples my hourly rate etc.... I may, maybe, but only if he knows I'll do my best and trusts that I"ll try to do no more damage than what he orginally started with".As an example, here in Washington, I have people who call or drop by and seek Suzuki outboard service.(there are only 3 or 4 Suzuki dealers in Wash. and they aren't close by. Now, I'll change gear oil, spark plugs and winterize 'em, but if they have a problem I may feel is, say, a carb rebuild or an ignition glich,as an example, I tell 'em no I don't/shouldn't get invloved with that! I don't have service bulletins, service manuals, etc... I could be missing a simple fix for that particular problem. If things go bad, there is an understanding, I tried my best, it may work when I get done with it and guess what ?? You still owe me for the "service" I provided, be it better or worse than when you brought it in. Now can he sue me, sure he can, welcome to the USA. We can sue anyone we want to, for what ever reason we want to!!! Yes, can your guy sue you? If he want to !! If he thinks you may have any money he can get from you! If he wants to hire a lawyer and pay him $200 an hour! If he wants to screw around for a year or two playing the courtroom game! He won't! He'll just hate you and blame you for ALL the fault! Now, I do believe in doing the right thing and being up-standing and all that, BUT, is this guy also responsable??? At all??? That's the info we need to make a helpful answer to your orginal question!!!

 

[Doug Durako]

Re: What would you do???

Merc----not sure what state you are in, but in most states, a verbal agreement is a contract. Not only do you have a verbal agreement, it looks like money changed hands for this service. All that is left for a judge to do is to define "winterizing." They will use the definition in any one of about 4 different service/shop manuals. You owe for what is cracked from freezing.<br /><br />Of course, you could take all summer to fix it, which would not be acceptable to the owner so he may agree to split the cost difference at a faster shop that you and he agree upon. Put any further agreements in writing.<br /><br />I can't belive there is this much debate on this issue. This is why mechanics get a bad rap.

 

[oldboat1]

Re: What would you do???

not a nice thing between friends, but I think I would apologize and offer to pay the insurance deductible if the company will pay for the damage. And it may also be in the owner's best interest to state for the insurance record that there was clearly not a commercial arrangement, as you believe, if that issue comes up. That is, the insurance may pay only if there is no business liablility.

 

[Doug Durako]

Re: What would you do???

Owners insurance won't pay----this is improper maintenance, not an accident. Unless, of course, everyone agrees to lie to the adjuster.<br /><br />Business insurance would pay for Merc's problem, if he had purchased the coverage. He chooses to operate without it.<br /><br />I hope a customer never brings a child into Merc's business who slips and cuts their cute little face on a prop. His home policy won't cover the liability (business pursuits exclusion). He will pay for the scar on that child for the rest of his life.<br /><br />Unless, of course, everyone agrees to lie again.<br /><br />Either you run a business or you don't. If you charge a fee for services, you operate a business.

 

[bernieb]

Re: What would you do???

We have all learned the hard way ,It's all part of the learning process you might say.You may help yourself by finding out for sure what year engine he has in the boat .The best thing for you is to be honest with the man ,tell him your not a dealership but you will look for a used replacement block and use all of his existing parts off the bad block but make it clear that you can only offer labor other than the block which can be bought from a junk yard for a couple of hundred .Afterall he tried to save money and have it done cheap and it was a cold winter.It may be a good way to learn the I/o work ,so write on paper what your willing to do and that he will probably have to get it tuned at a dealship at his expense after the block change. My wife is old and when shes gone that don't mean I'm entitled to a new one.

 

[f_inscreenname]

Re: What would you do???

This is why in my business I don't do work for neighbors or friends unless it is for free or a six pack. Then you can always blame it on the beer.

 

[sea wolf]

Re: What would you do???

if u weren't sure how to winterize his engine u should have declined. but, u agreed so now you're on the hook. period. u were negiligent. u should have at least looked at a manuel to learn the procedure. just because u charged him a reduced price has in my opinion, nothing to do with it. if u took you're boat or vehicle or whatever to a shop & they screwed it up, what would u do? i'm sure you'd want to be made whole again. correct? it seems that nobody wants to take responsibility anymore for their mistakes. be a man about it & admit that u screwed up. i'm not trying to be hard on u but u asked. just my $.02.

 

[mercury1]

Re: What would you do???

First of all,<br />I want to thank all of your input.<br />Whether I liked it or not, I will take it all in respect.<br />Now that I have had time to calm down and think about the situation. I may have been negligent, or I may not have. I thought I had all of the water out, is there really any gauruntee that you do have it out? If so would someone explain it. Also is there any gauruntee that the 25 year old man, that owns his first boat, trying to impress his 40+ year old blonde girl freind with his new boat, may have taken it out again for one last spin? I did the job in early Sept, and where I live, it normally is good boating weather up till the middle of October.<br />Guys I was bowhunting in 85 degree weather (evenings) in the middle of October last year.<br />My point is, after it left my shop, I cannot be responsible for what happens to the boat.<br /><br />I am looking into new 545 blocks. If I do end up paying for it, the most I will replace is the block/gaskets etc the bare minimum. He seems to think I need to buy him a new shortblock. The boat is a 95 VIP in excellent shape.<br /><br />The boat is being inspected by a 3rd party (authorized dealer), uninformed of the circumstances, and we will go from there.<br /><br />Dont get me wrong, I am not trying to be an A$$, I am also trying to protect myself.<br /><br />All for now.<br /><br />Thanks again guys!<br /><br />Merc

 

[SlowlySinking]

Re: What would you do???

Mercury1, point of interest; from my experience the minute you start the rebuild you will probably be married to the engine for life, I suggest you make a list, get prices and sit down with the boat owner and set the ground rules, like whether you use a new short-block, just a new block and old parts, a rebuild short block, length of warranty if any, etc. etc. put it in writing and both sign before a notary or other unbiased witness. This learning experience will cost you enough so you should probably cut your future losses now, just my 2cents.