What to do with my two 470's?

Kolbads

Cadet
Joined
Dec 21, 2022
Messages
9
I bought a 1983 Commander 26 (BC built cruiser) with twin 470's. (Yes, now I know better!) First boat. I've spent LOTS of time since on boating forums, mainly this one, reading up on the 470's. I've pretty much decided that keeping the engines isn't a sensible option, but I thought I'd see if any of the very experienced experts here would advise otherwise. I know most would agree, but maybe @achris @stonyloam @ROY WILLIAMS? Mechanic had an initial look (after I bought it): one of them "runs"; the other has zero compression on #3 cylinder. after removing head, he thinks it's a stuck lifter but would need to pull engine and investigate further.

So, I i planned to sell to recover what I can of the *too much* I paid for it. But Commander 26's are well-liked around here, and some say to repower it, either with single or twin gas engine, or with single diesel. (My first queries on cost of repowering were a shock: approx $100,000 (CDN), but I have some more looking to do on the sub-options there.)

I would have to get a hull survey before deciding to repower. Mechanic says transom is "solid as a rock" and no obvious repairs elsewhere, but hasn't done thorough check for soft spots. I haven't seen the boat yet; I live 1200 km away. I bought it on online auction, with only this info (link): https://bid.ableauctions.ca/1983-CO...EN-NOOK-3-BURNER-GAS-STOVE-SLEEPS-4_i47315371

So, I'd really appreciate hearing thoughts from the members here, on each of the options: maintain 470's, sell, repower. Thank you!
 

racerone

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
36,033
I think you need to talk to a few more shops.-----Or learn to install engines.----Your location ?
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
47,297
No need to pull motor to look at a lifter, however it will help.

If your drives are 34" apart, you can swap up to V6 or V8s

If they are 30" apart (common on 470s) then you need to redo the transom, stringers, engine beds, etc.

A repower will not cost you 100k unless you are smoking dope. 2 brand new long tails, controls, etc will cost about $40k

2 bobtail V6s would be about $10k and you use your drives.

Me, If the drives are on 30" centerlines....I would ditch the iron heads, swap to an aluminum head, use a bore stabilizing spider to keep the bores from moving and redo the 470s. If the drives are on 34" centerlines, I would drop in 2 5.7 liter motors with heat exchangers
 

racerone

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
36,033
Looks like BC.----Determine condition of running engine.-----Determine condition of the drives.-----If good then rebuild / repair the bad engine.----Sell the boat.
 

Kolbads

Cadet
Joined
Dec 21, 2022
Messages
9
Thank you @racerone and @Scott Danforth. I didn’t think replies would come so fast, so I wasn’t paying attention until now. I’ll try to reply to replies much sooner now.

This is a long post. I hope not too, TOO long.

Yes the boat is in BC lower mainland. I’m in Alberta … will see the boat in a week or two.

The comments from both make sense to me (except I don`t know which are longtail engines and which are bobtail, but that's for later. I gather from the forums and googling that the Com26 isn't an easy hull to fit other engines into).

I'm a beginner. I did a complete rebuild with a friend on an old vauxhall engine 45 years ago (45? Really? ouch!) when I had access to a well-equipped automotive shop, and 30 years ago pulled the cylinder head on my toyota to get it redone after the timing chain broke, but those experiences are very distant memories. I'm game to dig in and get my hands dirty, but concerned about how very long it is likely to take me; also need to start from scratch acquiring tools/equipment beyond my current ratchet sets, and a place to work. (I think I have a line on an outdoor spot which I could cover, but it's a $2500 tow away.) Also considered bringing the engines and drives to my home garage in Calgary to work on them, where at least one motorhead friend would be happy to help.

Re sterndrive spacing, pretty sure it's 30"; I'll verify. The overhead view of the engines in the link of my first post would probably tell the tale.

At risk of turning this post into a novel, this is what mechanic reported:

26' commander
Twin Mecruiser 470 and MR drives.
Compression test.
Port engine.
#1. 130
#2. 130
#3. 125
#4. 125.
Starboard engine.
#1. 160
#2. 155
#3. 0
#4. 150.
Port engine compression is good starboard engine fails due to #3 cylinder.
Head was removed to assess.
Cylinders and head kook in good condition. 1 hydraulic lifter is jammed and holding a valve open.
I tried to remove it but wasn't able too.
Engine oil level was on both engines and it is clean with traces of moisture.
Coolant levels are good on both engines. Port was clean. Starboard is low concentration.
Both cooling systems passed a pressure test.
Both engine exhaus risers need replace.ent.
Hydraulic steering fluid is n/a because the steering lines are not connected at the helm.
Starboard engine temperature was good while running @160deg. Oil pressure was good at 40psi.
Both sterndrive oil levels are good.
Oil is contaminated with water in both drives.
Prop shaft seals loom good.
Both ujoint bellows have water ingress and the u joints and gimbal bearings need replacement.
Power trim fluid level was good.
Both power trim switches don't activate the trim pumps.
Both fuleul systems are correct with anti siphon valves and water separating fuel filters.
Batteries were dead when boat arrived but we were able to get 3 charged.
Both 6v batteries are good.
I 12v battery is good and 1 needs replacing.
Belts look good on both engines.
Shift and throttle are operating correctly on. Oth engines.
Gauges all function on Starboard engine.
There is no working bilge pump on the boat at this time.
Bilge blower function properly.


I'm confused about a few things there, but will try to clarify with him. After removing rocker cover he said valve train is functioning properly. Next day after removing head I thought he said on the phone that he had applied a lot of force to the lifter with a screwdriver, it suddenly gave a big a snap "and went right through". Thinking it through afterwards, I thought he must have said or meant valve. Neither makes sense to me given his report above, that hydraulic lifter is jammed, holding valve open, and he's unable to remove it.

Bits of good news: Port engine has 4" heat exchanger (needs leak repair); stbd has 3".
Both have "proper marine alternators".

Does all of the above change what you have very helpfully suggested so far?
 

Attachments

  • 1675661233119.png
    1675661233119.png
    203.3 KB · Views: 4

Kolbads

Cadet
Joined
Dec 21, 2022
Messages
9
PS: Here's the overhead view of the engines, which I just figured out I cut and paste from the auction website. Plus a few to give a sense of the boat overall. 1675666288828.png

1675666789201.png

1675666873056.png

1675666948542.png

1675666998485.png
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
47,297
this is TOO long.......Im a beginner.

above change what you have very helpfully suggested so far?
You have a project.

You bought a project requiring a giant pile of cash if you can't do the work yourself

Your best bet is buy two running 470s your next best bet is rebuild the two you have.
 

Scott06

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
5,542
Thanks Scott. Appreciate the additional comments.
“I’ll be back” :cool:
Places like michigan motorz offer remans of your engines. https://www.michiganmotorz.com/3-7l-470-mercruiser-marine-engine-1976-89

IF the space is there you would be money ahead swapping in 4.3's . if they are too close together for V engines then you are stuck rebuilding these or swapping in 3.0's or rebuilding the transom.

Either way the drives are older MC-1s , the port lower is a newer R/MR/Alpha gen one. You can use the newer Alpha gen one in their place if need be but transom parts and trim component supply may be iffy due to age (I think MC1 was last made in 1980 or 1981...)
 

stresspoint

Ensign
Joined
Sep 19, 2022
Messages
959
i would be curios to know why the hydraulic lines on the steering were disconnected HMMM .
iv always loved that style boat ,it will be a project , but guessing worth the work an $$$ to bring it around. i hope you are planning to keep it period correct .
 

nola mike

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
5,023
You have a project.

You bought a project requiring a giant pile of cash if you can't do the work yourself

Your best bet is buy two running 470s your next best bet is rebuild the two you have.
I'd swap the order of that. His motors seem to be in decent shape. I mean, nothing even emergent about it. Get the head straight and he's got 2 runners until he feels like rebuilding (could even just do the port side)
 

Kolbads

Cadet
Joined
Dec 21, 2022
Messages
9
Thanks for the new comments. I'm arranging a marine survey for the whole boat, mostly to see how sound the boat is structurally. I'm not keen on putting tons of time into fibreglass/core replacement. We'll see how that turns out. Then I'm thinking along the same line as @nola mike, see if I can get both engines and drives going without too too much work/$$, and get it in the water for a season and see what happens. Then make up my mind about repowering.
 

ROY WILLIAMS

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 8, 2022
Messages
351
Thanks for the new comments. I'm arranging a marine survey for the whole boat, mostly to see how sound the boat is structurally. I'm not keen on putting tons of time into fibreglass/core replacement. We'll see how that turns out. Then I'm thinking along the same line as @nola mike, see if I can get both engines and drives going without too too much work/$$, and get it in the water for a season and see what happens. Then make up my mind about repowering.
my 470 engine is great 1978 ....I was changing the ignition timing 2 deg lower . then the engine oil is the SN PLUS 4-6 oz.....additive . also the heat exchanger is putting in the zinc drain plug ..the fall was the marvel mystery oil one oz in the cylinders .....
the outdrive in the fall take out ,, the the grease and inspect the bellows and the outdrive gear oil ....
the fall was taking out the gasoline tank ... in todays world the alcohol ... gasoline 10% .. put the gasoline 1 oz MMO 10 gallons ...
then I take it out gas and put in my 2000 silverado truck in the fall ..
 

Kolbads

Cadet
Joined
Dec 21, 2022
Messages
9
Update. Finally got out to my boat to pursue the “get it safely on the water with minimum expense and time and see how it feels this season”. And I’m feeling optimistic about it. It looks good overall and appears to have been well looked after. Hope to sea trial in a week or two.

Port engine runs and shifts okay on muffs. All sounds okay to my inexperienced ear.

Stbd engine. Pulled out the sticky lifter with a stick whittled to press fit. Looks okay after cleaning, but was missing the retainer clip so bought a new one and replaced it. (Then found the clip while sweeping under the engine with a magnet for a dropped socket, so a spare now. ). Reassembled. Tried start. Starter operates if jumped from battery, but nothing from helm key. About to check the wiring.

Walls between coolant and exhaust getting thin on stbd eng on manifold and exhaust elbow. (Both elbows were fitted for raw water cooling, with a plate installed between manifold and elbow.). Replacing the elbow with a somewhat better used one, but it’s thinned out at the exhaust end. See photos. I’ll be needing a replacement manifold and elbow soonish. Suggested sources?

Steering. (Reminder: Hydraulic lines were disconnected at cabin helm, connected at bridge helm. Don’t know why.). Need to flush/bleed lines, reconnect and test.

Then check through-hulls. Then buy at least the regulation required gear It was stripped of everything that could be used or sold elsewhere. No electronics at all (original gauges are here and working), no dinghy, no anchor, chain, or rode, windlass motor removed, no fenders, no life jackets, trumpets removed from horn, no bilge pump, …

Then sea trial! Getting excited! Fingers crossed.

Let me know if I’m missing something important! Thanks in advance for your interest and comments.

Photos of old and new(er) elbows:
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0842.jpeg
    IMG_0842.jpeg
    2.1 MB · Views: 11
  • IMG_0845.jpeg
    IMG_0845.jpeg
    1.7 MB · Views: 11
  • IMG_0847.jpeg
    IMG_0847.jpeg
    1.4 MB · Views: 11
  • IMG_0849.jpeg
    IMG_0849.jpeg
    2.3 MB · Views: 11
  • IMG_0850.jpeg
    IMG_0850.jpeg
    2.5 MB · Views: 12
  • IMG_0855.jpeg
    IMG_0855.jpeg
    1.8 MB · Views: 11

Kolbads

Cadet
Joined
Dec 21, 2022
Messages
9
Lifters mate for life with the cam lobe. I would swap back myself
Since engine is reassembled and I can’t see any wear marks on the lifter and didn’t see any on the camimage.jpg, I’ll leave the new one in for now. the one line across it is a stain left by the valrsol fluid line when I soaked it overnight. The other stains are perfectly smooth.
 

flashback

Captain
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Messages
3,665
If what I see in your hand is a lifter it's dead. And what you see welded to the lifter is a large piece of the cam... IMHO
 

Scott Danforth

Grumpy Vintage Moderator still playing with boats
Staff member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
47,297
That looks bad. You have to do a proper cam/lifter break in and hope you don't toast the cam lobe
 

Kolbads

Cadet
Joined
Dec 21, 2022
Messages
9
Update.

Thanks for the comments. The lifter in the picture above is the old one. Didn't seem to me to be "weld" on it since the surface is perfectly smooth, visually and to touch at least. With new lifter installed, tried a brief run on muffs without putting exhaust elbow back on. Ran, but very rough. Coolant spraying lots from heat exchanger end cap.

Wiring. Intermittent power from helm switch to starter motor was resolved by cleaning the very messy connectors at the slave solenoid.

Exhaust manifold to exhaust elbow joint. I pressure tested coolant system after the brief run. It leaked from the manifold side of gasket. I had installed a single gasket which the local parts supplier said had replaced the metal plate and two gaskets shown in mercruiser's parts diagram. I wonder if it doesn't seal as readily as the plate/gaskets did. But I had done the same rep;lacement on the port engine, which held the 15 psi system pressure test nicely. So I removed the elbow and tried hand filing the manifold surface to reduce the surface pits. It still leaked on pressure test afterwards. And after two more rounds and 2-3 hours of hand filing. Before and after filing photos attached. It's far from a milled surface of course, but I thought it was worth a try (or three) for the short term. So now have reinstalled the elbow, adding a little Permatex High Temp gasket maker/sealant. The 24-hour cure time has just ended, so I'll soon see if that has helped. I want it to hold at least long enough for me to run the engine enough to decide if it is good enough to warrant maintaining.

If the manifold/gasket joint still doesn't hold pressure, I'm considering getting the manifold milled flat. I haven't seen any reference to anyone else trying this, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. I'm guessing if no one else had, it's because the manifold water jacket would be corroded throughout so a new manifold would soon be needed anyway. Very expensive. So for my short-term need, I seems worth a try. Any thoughts?

Heat exchangers. Both sides leaked badly from the end plates. Unable to find bulk rubber gasket material of similar thickness, I cut new gaskets from cork and installed with RTV sealant. Hope to test those today too. (The only reason I don't have new gaskets is because they wouldn't have arrived on time for the run-up. Now after three rounds of not getting a seal at the elbow, they would have been here in plenty of time. Oh well.)

Steering. After way too much research/thinking what fluid to add before connecting the hydraulic lines at the helm, today I will add ATV fluid and test the steering.

Then the rest of the list, and sea trials, a week or two later than envisaged in my last post.

Comments welcome!
 
Top