What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

[POINTER94]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

Snapperbait,<br /><br />It is physically upsetting to think that 48% of America thinks that the pricipals of the free market economy, and the freedom that was designed into our constitution is worth sacrificing for free viagra and rolaids. That we would rather steal from those who have, cuz it just isn't fair, than work to attain a similiar situation. <br /><br />It then crossed my mind that people are actually deluding themselves into believing that this isn't socialism, it is the democratic platform and they historically are more civically liberal, but in a matter of degrees only. Heck, this is America, we kicked the butts of Facism, Socialism and Communism so the world would be a better place. But as I began to read, and listen to the programs, tax burdens, demonization of the successful, polarization of the society based on income, race, gender, religion, (The two America's speech) I began to wonder if we really lost those wars? Did all those men and women die so others could leverage tax dollars for votes at the cost of personal freedom? I have been able to rationalize that this was not the case until recently.<br /><br />I am looking for someone to rationalize it for me that the America our parents believed in is the one that exists today. Or is it the Cuba that Castro believes in with better suits and smoother lingo. Someone defend that we are not what we have fought against and paid such a high price to eliminate. Can we trade our freedom for money? Have the borg taken over? I want my perspective adjusted by those who support democrats and can hopefully better define what I think I have heard the past 5 years or so. If it is socialism, don't let those of us who believe America is more than that. It is the only honest thing to do..<br /><br />My mind is open and begging someone to prove me wrong..

 

[kd6nem]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

Still no answers?<br /><br />Snapper, we don't want to argue. We only want:<br /> <br />1. Personal responsibility and the opportunity it brings to be facilitated and encouraged. <br /><br />2. Economics that are sustainable, reasonable, fair, and otherwise work long term without a lot of smoke and mirrors. This means no more deficit, no excessive spending. Everyone to get the same fair treatment.<br /> <br />3. A less burdensome government. Few new laws, simplification of existing laws including the tax code. Less taxation to burden the masses. (Remember the Boston Tea Party? To oversimplify a bit, this country was started over a mere 3% tax on tea. Just 3%! Even the lower tax brackets in reality pay at least ten to fifteen TIMES that amount of their income in taxes these days.)<br /><br />We want accountability from our leaders, expect them to be wise enough to understand the implications and consequences of their actions, and genuine honesty. We want to get selfish manipulations and wild ideas about re-engineering society into anything untraditional entirely out of government. We want to be able to discuss this without all the verbal gymnastics that we have had to endure for a lot of years now. (Real, straight forward, honest & complete discussion which actually says something and answers the question.) We want words used to mean what they mean without being redefined to suit the whim of the one speaking. (Absence of overt spin) We want people to remember where we have come from and how we got here. (Accurate sense of history. So much of great value can be learned and used if we only dare pay attention! Not just selectively, either.) Without this, it is simply not possible to appreciate the opportunity we have nor the vastness of damage which might be done by careless laws created impulsively (or with predetermined effort to re-engineer society in the case of the arrogant elitists). <br /><br />Unfortunately, in my estimation not many republicans really get this, and absolutely no democrats get it at all. But what is listed is not at all unreasonable an expectation. Both parties need to work on this- a lot.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

Excellent question Pointer. According to the ten reasons to defeat Bush, found in this link, NOTHING.<br /><br /><br /> http://www.cpusa.org/article/articleview/585/1/27/

 

[12Footer]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

What you call "arguement", I call "debate", Snapperbait. If you don't want to participate, fine, but it's your input that was requested, not us conservative types' input in the first place.<br />Sometimes you may feel outnumbered here, but understand that most everybody on here recognises the need for all points of view. If you cannot think of anything to contribute, perhaps it means there is no rational rebutal.<br />You are still part of the debate and part of us.<br />Pointer Specifically axed for your opinion here. Believe me, it's valued.

 

[snapperbait]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/p/po/politics_1.html <br /><br />Read it and figure it out for yourselves.. <scroll down to political systems and ideologies><br /><br />Also might give some insight to the many forms of conservatism... <br /><br />As for me.. I finally realized i'm not a true democrat... I fit in somewhere between Anarchist, Libertarian, and Capitalist pig, with maybe a dash of socialist spinkeled on here and there.....

 

[dogsdad]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

Let's float this idea: whatever is meant to be accomplished by siezing the means of production can also be realized by other means, such as an engineered tax code coupled with radical social programs. The end result is the same---an elite ruling class dominating an oppressed peasantry.<br /><br />(Ever stop to think about the communist takeover of Russia? Nothing changed, except a handful of vengeful peasants found their way to power and oppressed everyone else just like their predecessors had.)<br /><br />There's not a nickel's worth of difference between the democrats of today and socialists.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

Dogsdad, that is why I think I like a national sales tax over the current income tax. Dennis Hastert is setting the stage to do away with the IRS in favor of a sales tax. As long as it is not the insidious Value Added Tax, I think it will remove Congress's ability to use the income tax as a social engineering vehicle.<br /><br />If it ever comes up for a vote, I guess we'll get the opportunity to see what our politicians are made of, from both sides of the aisle.

 

[12Footer]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

Originally posted by snapperbait:<br /> <br />As for me.. I finally realized i'm not a true democrat... I fit in somewhere between Anarchist, Libertarian, and Capitalist pig, with maybe a dash of socialist spinkeled on here and there.....

Dang, son! You are more messed up than I thought. lol.<br />JK,bro

 

[POINTER94]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

whatever is meant to be accomplished by siezing the means of production can also be realized by other means, such as an engineered tax code coupled with radical social programs. The end result is the same---an elite ruling class dominating an oppressed peasantry.<br />

This is the thought process that spawned the question.. Thanks ddd

 

[fixin]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

quote You Gentlemen have stated many times that the democrat is a socialist.. That tells me you all don't want the answers, you just want to argue..... <br /><br /><br />couldn't agree more c-ya

 

[Boomyal]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

Well Fixin, I will say that I don't believe the rank-in-file Democrat is a Socialist, although many are certainly all too receptive to the socialist nanny government philosophy that is the absolute antithises to all of the founding tenants of this country.<br /><br />I will say, that today's Democratic leadership, more than ever before, forsee as much socialism as they can wrangle and cajole thru Congress, as a way to creating a dedicated, captive power base. <br /><br />You'd have to be blind to not see the whole of it.<br /><br />Just look at the Democratic Philosophies:<br /><br />Tear apart the family structure that has proven to be the backbone of societies from the beginning of time.<br /><br />Usurp the role of the parent in too many ways to list here.<br /><br />Encourage abhorrent behavior (homosexuality) that throughout history has been at the center in the demise of civilizations.<br /><br />Continue to support and encourage the killing of the yet and near born.<br /><br />Destroy the concept of personal responsibility thru outrageous tort litigation.<br /><br />As much transfer of wealth, thru taxation, as they can ramrod thru congress.<br /><br />Continuous attempts to get us out our means of independant transportation.<br /><br />Refusal to allow this nation to develop and utilize it's own natural resources.<br /><br />Constant insistance that this country subjugate itself to 'world' opinion.<br /><br />Constantly dividing, thru racial and economic class warfare, under the guise of trying to make things fair<br /><br />Their constant disguising of true motives by use of clever terms and phrases made to make an issue more palatable.<br /><br />Constant, unrelenting pressure to disarm the American public.<br /><br /><br />These and many more are all issues that seek to diminish the strength and power of the individual and weaken the glue that has made this nation the bastion of freedom in it's truest sense.<br /><br />Socialism, wherever it has been sustained, became nothing more than a vehicle to subjugate the population to those wishing to have dictatorial control. <br /><br />I will say all of the BAHOOGAWAGA from the Democrats this election cycle, has nothing to do with Bush, beyond the fact that he represents a philosophy that keeps the Democrats from regaining POWER.

 

[rolmops]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

Socialism ,where it has been sustained in Northern Europe and Canada,has given the citizens of those countries health,housing and prosperity and yes freedom.<br />It also defended them against republican mogul enterpreneurs like rupert Murdoch who single handedly tries to censure the news media and thiefs like the Enron management who tried to rob all of the state of California.This is to name just a few.You want to make a bet they vote republican?The Enron thiefs were on president Bush's energy advisors list. <br />Sort of makes you wonder who the real enemies of democracy and freedom are.<br />Those who defend Joe Shmoo against big capital or those individuals who try to run the country from behind the scenes using money ,power and other types of influence?<br />Boomyal can you please give an answer that is not a soundbite?

 

[Boomyal]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

My points speak for themselves, Rolmops, they are not soundbites.. Some of the things you speak of are not contained in a philosophical platform of the Republican Party. They are simply criminal abuses that should be punished.<br /><br />The items I listed, are in fact, either stated or acted out agendas of the Democratic Party.<br /><br />I say if America ever adopts the degree of socialism found in Europa and Canada, or kneels at the throne of the UN, we will cease to be the dynamic, powerful, benevolent country that is the envy of the world.<br /><br />When I have a signifigant portion of my property, forcibly removed from me on an ongoing basis, for the purposes of giving it to another person, I will simply not perform to the best of my ability, neither will a society. That is an undisputable fact of human nature, Rolmops. No sound bite

 

[fixin]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

Boomyall;HE HE HA HA,you are something(not sure what) I doubt anything I say would change your view,or anything you say would change mine.so with that,have a good one.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

The question had nothing to do with Europe or Mars but the difference between democrats and socialists, not the merit of socialism.<br /><br />Since we are on the topic. Unemployment stats from paradise:<br /><br />USA - 5.6% http://stats.bls.gov/ <br /><br />Sweden: 5.8% http://www.scb.se/templates/tableOrChart____23325.asp <br /><br />Canada: 7.3% http://www.statcan.ca/start.html <br /><br />France: 9.6% It must be considered that France has a 35hr work week and just slashed unemployment benefits. (The example I saw showed the average unemployed woman went from $1700 to $450 a month in unemployment benefits) They also have nearly eliminated immigration. This caring and enlightened people are now considered anti-semetic and French jews were advised by the government of Israel to leave and room would be made for them in Israel. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/france.html <br /><br />Germany 10% http://edition.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/11/06/german.jobless.reut/

 

[rolmops]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

But seriously.There is a huge difference between the American democratic party and socialism.<br />Given the fact that neither pure socialism nor pure capitalism exist,we find ourselves in a society where we constantly have to negotiate between the needs of the individual and the needs of society as a whole.Not one single individual can afford to build roads,museums,libraries,armies or hospitals and many other things.So we pay taxes and those taxes go to pay for many different purposes.<br />The republican part of our population mostly exists of people who would like to see less tax money spent on social causes such as housing,health and education because they believe that people should fence for themselves within a free market.<br />The socialist Party of America-yes it does exist-<br />believes that the state should take care of all its citizens on an equal bases.By progessively taxing the richer part of the population a higher percentage of its income,this party tries to redivide the riches amongst the entire population,whether all are deserving or not.this is a traditional socialist approach,that has proven to be worthless.<br />The Democratic party as I observe it,is a Liberal party. This means neither Socialist nor Conservative.This liberal point of view is pro business and pro industry,while at the same time trying to promote a humanistic environment.Where there is no extreme poverty and there is basic human dignity for the poor as well.<br />There are a few problems that rise from a two party system.Each party has to cater to a wide range of political ideas in order to survive.The republicans tried for the fundamentalist heartland and the democrats went for the urban population.Both parties cater to the needs of their voters and special interest(powerful money).<br />the democrats try to promote big business just as much as the republicans.The big difference is in the way the urban population sees America as part of the world while the rural populaton sees America as the center of the world.Both parties like the capitalist system.But democrats like to channel this system in order to prevent excesses.<br />So are american democrats socialists?NO WAY.They are moderate liberal capitalists.Where the republicans are less moderate and much less liberal capitalists.<br />ps Boomyal,did you know that the daughter of your vice president is openly gay? Her parents are ok with it and her conservative republican mom wants gay marriage legalized

 

[POINTER94]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

Rolmops, I agree with most of what you say. But the simple act of redistribution of wealth by compulsatory and ever expanding means, socialistic by nature? Taxes used to build roads, support the military, pay for the weather service, fire, police, are necessary and universal benefits to the population, money taken from one person and simply given to another able bodied person is redistribution of wealth for the purposes defined by those who levy the burden. By these means they somewhat dictate what you can own, how much, where you can travel, etc. These type of restrictions, to me, are inconsistant with the tenents that formed this country. My parents told me when I left college to start right away for my retirement. If I got back all the money I have put into Social Secruity put into the stock market, and based at the 10yr growth of the market I would be able to retire at 55 very comfortably. Instead I put another 12% of my income into a 401K and hope I will have enough. 1% was the initial rate for SS and what is it now, and do you think it will be solvent when I hit 67 or probably 70 by the time I can retire? This is a classic bait and switch program. And if I die prematurely, ooh goody, free money for the government.<br /><br />Now they would like to take 20% of the GNP and have the government administer it. Have you been to a VA hospital recently? Sounds like socialism to me. I could be wrong, put that is how I view it. The average American has to work until May before he makes a dime, this is socialism. And the democrats platform is to demonize others for reducing taxes while offering to raise tax rates and create new taxes on top?<br /><br />Political indoctrination begins in the schools. Our kids can't read but they can put a "free" condom on a cucumber. The nurse cannot give your child an asprin, but can hand out the morning after pill??? This doesn't track. We put our kids on a government bus, to a government school, fed there with government milk and food, (breakfast lunch and dinner in some places), given government abortions, play sports in government equipment and facilities, pretend to read out of a government book, administered by a government employee, immunized by the government, and in many cases, clothed, housed and cleaned, and insured by the government. This IS social engineering. They tax one product at one rate and others at another based on their sense of the right way to live. We redefine personal choices as diseases so they can justify taking additional monies? All this advocated by the democratic party. California has reached a boiling point and held a governor responsible who lied during his campaign, failed to meet his promises, and handed out money like he was in a strip joint, and they squeel unfair???<br /><br />Then there is the whole international appeasment policies that usurp the rights of all Americans. They ********** the enviromental laws to seize private property privledges. We have laws, but they bypass them with liberal judges issuing dubious rulings. Where in the law does a fly, an insect, have more rights than a human, American landowner? This is a manifestation of socialism.<br /><br />Is it possible that I am misunderstanding what a socialist is? I in all honesty would like to be, and I am turning to others to show me the errors in my reasoning. I know what the technical definition of a socialist is but perhaps I am misunderstanding the intent. But I can't see a difference in a democrat from a socialist, and not much of one from a republican and a socialist.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

Sorry Mr. Franklin, we're all Democrats now.<br /><br /> http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2003/cr012903.htm

 

[kd6nem]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

What a speech!<br /><br />There is a big difference between having lots of facts and really being able to think and do something with that information. More than ever I am seeing that there is a huge difference between mere knowledge and wisdom. We have a gross overabundance of the former and a near drought of the latter these days. We have been fooled into thinking our technology makes us smart. If you want smart just look at what the founding father's wrote. I'm not aware of any intellectual today or recently who can compare in terms of insight into mankind and what the needs of a society are. What a mess we've devolved into! Two hundred years ago they warned us, but we were too stubborn to pay attention. And those still not paying attention strive to make matters worse as rapidly as possible!

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: What is the difference between the Democratic party and Socialists?

And those still not paying attention strive to make matters worse as rapidly as possible!

You said that right Bearcat.<br />Here we have teachers, businessmen, people that claim to be conservatives and patriots.<br />Yet there's a whole lot of complaining, fingerpointing and bashing the other guy.<br /><br />Give them the cause, effect and cure. <br />And the former is still prefered.<br /><br />Sure makes me feel proud to be in the minority.