Volvo Penta in Bayliner 1989 runs in start position but not in run position

[xs650head]

OK I will check this out tomorrow and report back - $59 sounds a lot better than $569 but sometimes you've gotta buy the better tools to do the job

Hi there, apologies for the delay - pretty bad weather put things on hold for a while but I have now been to the boat and tried a few things:
My engine diagnostic connector has 10 wires
The wire at pin E is Grey with a black stripe
I did some tests on the key ignitions and they both read the same using a multimeter in all positions - I also applied WD40 to the internals of them, I then checked the fuel-pump relay and it was 'hot' with the ignition in the 'Run' position - I removed and tested all the fuses -they were all good, I then cleaned and put WD40 in all the connectors, relays and fuse positions and then replaced everything.
So far it has made no difference - it starts and runs while the key is held in the 'start' position but stops when the key is turned back to the 'run' position.
I am thinking of trying swapping the ignition module from the other motor across to this motor (as the other motor is an unknown quantity at this point) to see if it makes any difference - what do you think?

 

[ripjmk]

As it starts with the key held in the start position I don't believe swapping ignition coils will change anything. In you initial post you said the alarm sounds with the key on until the engine starts. That could be an issue, you should get two beeps (ECU self test) when the key is turned on and then it should stop. Is it a continuous sound or an intermittent beep? Does it return after the engine stops? Does the other engine give the two beeps when the ignition is turned on?
A continuous sound should not occur with the engine not running. Alarm
causes are low oil pressure or high coolant temp or high exhaust riser temp AND engine above 400 rpm!
Intermittent beep is indication that a DTC has been stored in ECU memory, but I don't believe it would stop after the engine is running.
A bad ground (earth) can cause all sorts of issues, I'd start by cleaning ALL the engine grounds.

 

[xs650head]

As it starts with the key held in the start position I don't believe swapping ignition coils will change anything. In you initial post you said the alarm sounds with the key on until the engine starts. That could be an issue, you should get two beeps (ECU self test) when the key is turned on and then it should stop. Is it a continuous sound or an intermittent beep? Does it return after the engine stops? Does the other engine give the two beeps when the ignition is turned on?
A continuous sound should not occur with the engine not running. Alarm
causes are low oil pressure or high coolant temp or high exhaust riser temp AND engine above 400 rpm!
Intermittent beep is indication that a DTC has been stored in ECU memory, but I don't believe it would stop after the engine is running.
A bad ground (earth) can cause all sorts of issues, I'd start by cleaning ALL the engine grounds.

Hi,
I believe the alarm sounds continuously until the engine starts - I cannot at this time remember if it returns once the engine stops - I will check next visit.
I have not heard the 2 beeps from the starboard engine (the one which runs in the start position) I will check the port engine for the 2 beeps also next visit.
Surely you would get a 'low oil pressure' condition with the ignition on but the engine not started and hence get an alarm until it started?
Also the other conditions would not exist if the engine was stone cold.
I totally agree about bad earths - a major cause of many electrical woes - I will be checking those too.
Thanks again for the info - I will take a pic of your last reply to remind me what to try next visit - cheers

I was thinking of swapping the plastic box that contains all the relays and fuses - I'm not sure which component that is - it states 'Engine Electrical Center' on the inside of the cover! and possibly the finned component which sits close to the fuse box but lower - it has a number 431AFM\04US01 and also 3863325, looking at the motor facing the front of the motor it is sort of rear left above the rocker cover (which incidentally has 'VORTEC' stamped into it)

 

[ripjmk]

The alarm circuit dose not get enabled until the engine starts i:e above 400 rpm, hence no alarm at key on engine off.
The finned component is the MEFI 4 engine ECU. and could be the problem. However, it is an expensive item and if there is some other fault that damaged it you don't want to damage the other one too! Best to check all other possibilities first.
I sent you a PM but you didn't reply so I assume you managed to get a copy of the VP EFI diagnostic manual. Check pages 252 -254 Audible Warning Horn Diagnoses.

 

[xs650head]

The alarm circuit dose not get enabled until the engine starts i:e above 400 rpm, hence no alarm at key on engine off.
The finned component is the MEFI 4 engine ECU. and could be the problem. However, it is an expensive item and if there is some other fault that damaged it you don't want to damage the other one too! Best to check all other possibilities first.
I sent you a PM but you didn't reply so I assume you managed to get a copy of the VP EFI diagnostic manual. Check pages 252 -254 Audible Warning Horn Diagnoses.

Hi, thx for the reply, not too clever with forums etc so apologies for not replying to your PM
I have managed to get hold of the VP EFI Diagnostics manual and will check the pages that you have advised - thanks again.
I am going to the boat this morning and meeting a marine technician who knows these motors - he also seemed to think that it could be simply a key-switch problem so, first things first we will physically swap the two ignition switches around and go from there.

 

[ripjmk]

I am going to the boat this morning and meeting a marine technician who knows these motors - he also seemed to think that it could be simply a key-switch problem so, first things first we will physically swap the two ignition switches around and go from there.

It is quite possible if you were trying to start it like a car and turning the key through ignition on straight to start without pausing! These engines need the pause at ignition on to allow the fuel pumps to prime the fuel rail and to let the ECU to do its self test (two beeps). If you did pause at ignition on and got the two beeps it's unlikely the switch is at fault, but it would be nice if that's the problem.

 

[xs650head]

It is quite possible if you were trying to start it like a car and turning the key through ignition on straight to start without pausing! These engines need the pause at ignition on to allow the fuel pumps to prime the fuel rail and to let the ECU to do its self test (two beeps). If you did pause at ignition on and got the two beeps it's unlikely the switch is at fault, but it would be nice if that's the problem.

Hi, we had a technician have a quick look this morning - he found that both the oil pressure switches were disconnected (one broken off connector and one broken switch) and advised us to purchase a couple of those first as well as a new starter motor for the port motor.
The motors are 2003 motors - who would you advise us to use (being very budget minded) to supply pressure switches and starters?
We did initially try swapping the ignition switches but had exactly the same result - starting and running only in the start position.

 

[xs650head]

Hi, we had a technician have a quick look this morning - he found that both the oil pressure switches were disconnected (one broken off connector and one broken switch) and advised us to purchase a couple of those first as well as a new starter motor for the port motor.
The motors are 2003 motors - who would you advise us to use (being very budget minded) to supply pressure switches and starters?
We did initially try swapping the ignition switches but had exactly the same result - starting and running only in the start position.

I have found a place called 'Marine Energy Systems' in QLD do you know of them?

 

[ripjmk]

I'm sorry I'm not aware of the part supply situation in Australia and I've never heard of MES in QLD. Maybe someone else on this forum can help.

 

[xs650head]

I'm sorry I'm not aware of the part supply situation in Australia and I've never heard of MES in QLD. Maybe someone else on this forum can help.

My apologies - I forgot that you are not here in Oz!
I have ordered the parts after receiving a quote and confirmation that they are the correct parts for our engines - including express post (from one side of Australia to the other) AUD $460 - not too painful!
If this gets the motors running then it will be time to get her over to the slip for some serious maintenance.
I will let you know how we go

 

[xs650head]

My apologies - I forgot that you are not here in Oz!
I have ordered the parts after receiving a quote and confirmation that they are the correct parts for our engines - including express post (from one side of Australia to the other) AUD $460 - not too painful!
If this gets the motors running then it will be time to get her over to the slip for some serious maintenance.
I will let you know how we go

Hi, apologies for the time taken to reply with an update - life has become very busy!
So, the new starter motor was fitted to the second motor and new oil-pressure switches fitted to both motors, then we swapped the jerry-can plus hose across to the second motor and tried it - exactly the same result!! The motor runs but only while the key is held in the 'start' position - still, at least we know that the second motor runs and also sounds good.
Fairly obviously we are looking at something common to both motors that is telling them to stop (or not letting them continue to run?)
Is there a 'user guide' or 'operators manual' available for the Bayliner series of boats as there are many switches and buttons that we are still not sure of their function - it may explain a few things.

 

[xs650head]

Hi, apologies for the time taken to reply with an update - life has become very busy!
So, the new starter motor was fitted to the second motor and new oil-pressure switches fitted to both motors, then we swapped the jerry-can plus hose across to the second motor and tried it - exactly the same result!! The motor runs but only while the key is held in the 'start' position - still, at least we know that the second motor runs and also sounds good.
Fairly obviously we are looking at something common to both motors that is telling them to stop (or not letting them continue to run?)
Is there a 'user guide' or 'operators manual' available for the Bayliner series of boats as there are many switches and buttons that we are still not sure of their function - it may explain a few things.

 

[Bondo]

The motor runs but only while the key is held in the 'start' position -

Ayuh,...... Sounds like a key-switch issue, as that's where the ignition circuit gets it's power,.....

 

[ripjmk]

Well that narrows things down a bit, as you have swapped the key switches and no change And both engines exhibit the same symptoms, the only thing common to both engines will be the kill switch! Did the helm controls get changed at the same time as the engines? I would suspect they are wired up incorrectly. On my control, the starter wire passes through the neutral detect switch (on dual engines I guess you'd have two) and the ignition wire passes through the kill switch (I'm not sure how they do that on dual engines, double pole switch perhaps?). IF, and it's a big if, the ignition wires are connected to the neutral switches it would cause what you are experiencing!
Anyway, it would be worth pulling the controls apart to see how they are wired up.

 

[xs650head]

Well that narrows things down a bit, as you have swapped the key switches and no change And both engines exhibit the same symptoms, the only thing common to both engines will be the kill switch! Did the helm controls get changed at the same time as the engines? I would suspect they are wired up incorrectly. On my control, the starter wire passes through the neutral detect switch (on dual engines I guess you'd have two) and the ignition wire passes through the kill switch (I'm not sure how they do that on dual engines, double pole switch perhaps?). IF, and it's a big if, the ignition wires are connected to the neutral switches it would cause what you are experiencing!
Anyway, it would be worth pulling the controls apart to see how they are wired up.

Hi, again - apologies for the late reply - life just won't stop!
You mention a 'Kill Switch' where would I find this ?
I have non of the history of the vessel as we bought it from a junkie who got it in payment for cash owed!! So, I don't really know if the helm controls were changed when the motors were.
I will have a look asap to see if I can find this 'kill switch' as I think ur on the right track there.
I will have a go at pulling the controls apart and take plenty of pics and then get back to you - again.
Thanks again for your time and input.
Bondo - I have swapped the key-switches and still get exactly the same result - both motors run with the key held in the start position but stop when the key is returned to the run position - this has to be something common to both motors - somewhere.

 

[Scott Danforth]

if the motors run at all, its not the kill switch. the kill switch is after the key switch and is in the ignition line. with the lanyard in, the ignition line is intact. with the lanyard pulled, the ignition line is broken.

therefore if the motors run at all, its not the key switch

 

[ripjmk]

The Kill switch is normally part of the throttle/shift unit. A spring loaded switch has a clip inserted to complete the ignition circuit, the clip is attached to a lanyard, you clip the other end of the lanyard to yourself while at the helm and traveling at speed. If you should get thrown from the helm the clip gets pulled from the kill switch and shuts down the engine. If your controls are still the original ones you may not have one. It would still be worth while to pull the controls to check how they are wired up.

 

[bruceb58]

if the motors run at all, its not the kill switch. the kill switch is after the key switch and is in the ignition line. with the lanyard in, the ignition line is intact. with the lanyard pulled, the ignition line is broken.

therefore if the motors run at all, its not the key switch

Only problem is that in certain applications, operating the starter sends voltage to the ignition system from the starter solenoid so the engine will actually run with the starter engaged. That is normally just done for points systems but even my 98 Volvo Penta had it wired that way.

 

[ripjmk]

Only problem is that in certain applications, operating the starter sends voltage to the ignition system from the starter solenoid so the engine will actually run with the starter engaged. That is normally just done for points systems but even my 98 Volvo Penta had it wired that way.

Bruce has a very good point! What model Bayliner is it? Going out on a limb I'd guess it's a 2955 Avanti. And If that's the case, it was probably originally fitted with twin 350 OMC Cobras (approximately same HP as the 4.3 GXi-E) Those engines did have the direct wire (purple/ black) from the starter solenoid to the coil. If they reinstalled this wire with the new engines it could be part of the problem!
Check there is no purple/black wire connected to the starter solenoids. If there is disconnect it, it shouldn't be there!
The other part of the problem could be the emergency stop switches. You indicated you hadn't noticed them, so that probably means the lanyard is missing! I think the Avanti had two of them and were mounted in the dash panel, I believe they were operated by caps on the lanyard that pushed over the switches.
If this is true it might explain the bad starter motor. With the caps on the kill switches, once the engine had started the ignition circuit would back feed the starter solenoid and the starter would run continuously!
Look around the boat for a lanyard with two caps on it.

 

[xs650head]

Hi, thank you all for your input and advice, I went down to the boat this morning and found an interesting thing - I will attach 2 pics of the switch panel that I find interesting - note the 2 switch? reset? buttons that are missing - unless these are the emergency stop switches that you mentioned and the lanyard is required to push into these positions?
I was thinking that if I pinch 2 other switches? resets? and try them in place of the 'Port Ignition' and the "STBD Ignition' ones it may shed some light on things but will now try to find the lanyard (any ideas what could be used if I cannot find the original?) what did the original look like?
I believe that you may be right in that it is a 2955 Avanti - the boat is a 1999 (as far as I'm aware) and the motors are 2004 GXI-E
The more I look at those 2 switches the more they look like something should be plugged into them...