Used 40hp two stroke value?

[mirrocraft16]

A buddies dad who hasn't had a boat now in 25 years, kept the then almost new 40hp Tohatsu he bought for his runabout in 1992. The boat turned out to be a rotten mess so he pulled the motor and junked the boat.
I tried to buy it 10 years ago for my aluminum boat but he said he still wanted to find another hull for it.
Now, 10 years later, he's in his late 80's and realizes that he's too old to put another boat together. In casual conversation he mentioned that his neighbor offered him $850 for the 40h Tohatsu.
I really wasn't looking for a motor since I had rigged my boat for a 35hp Johnson that's in good shape but the Tohatsu is cleaner and has far less use on it, spending 99% of its years in his garage under a blanket. My 35hp is healthy but its also 42 years old.

He offered me the motor for the same price. I took a quick look around to see what others were selling for, but really didn't see anything that new for sale for less, in fact, most 40-50hp motors were all over $1,500, many none of which were newer or four strokes.

My question is should I spend the $850 and upgrade to a much newer motor with less hours on it, or leave well enough alone?
My boat is rated for 40hp, I'm running a 1979 35hp Johnson with 119/117 compression and moderate corrosion from saltwater use over the years. I had looked at a newer 30hp, which I'm told is the same as my older 35hp, just rated different, so in reality I'd be bumping up my hp by 10hp, and getting a motor that's 13 years newer, with electric start.
Plus, I can likely sell my 35hp to recoup a good bit of the $850, if not all of it since I don't see any complete outboards selling for any less here.

 

[Sea Rider]

Is that a Tohatsu M40C motor ? If so, it's a bullet proof motor, correctly propped will have extreme water fun at speed. Fan 650 bucks in 50 bills on his face, see what happens. Nothing to lose, a nice motor to win..

Happy Boating​

 

[roscoe]

My question is should I spend the $850 and upgrade ....

YES
AND give him a nice dinner or a bottle if he prefers.

 

[mirrocraft16]

How heavy is the Tohatsu? Side by side with my 35hp its 1/3 larger all around.
Its more like the size of a 50hp Johnson or Evinrude.
My main concern is whether or not I'll gain enough in performance with the added 10hp or so with the added weight. I found it listed at 130lbs somewhere online, but I think its heavier than that. he's got it sitting on a homemade engine stand and I could barely lift it off the stand. I can grab my 35hp and carry it like a briefcase, its heavy but I can still move it. I remove it and store it inside in the off season.
The 35hp is listed at 117 lbs. if my 35hp is 117 lbs, the Tohatsu has got to be at least 50 or 60 lbs heavier at the very least.
I'd also need controls, he's got the dash panel which includes the igntion switch, dead man switch, and wiring harness to the motor, but no shifer or throttle controls. In his boat it was steered by a cable, mine has a Teleflex cable, which should work the same on the Tohatsu but I'd need to find the right link from the teleflex cable to the motor. The 40hp has a bracket attached to the handle where the rope cable and springs attached.

Will the 40hp make enough hp over and above the 35hp to make up for its added weight ?

 

[matt167]

I like the Tohatsu engines BUT, the 20-35hp 2cyl Johnnyrudes from '76?-'01ish are pretty much bullet proof. They changed very little.

You are gaining 10 'real' hp and 5hp as stickered

 

[crackedglass]

I did a similar upgrade to one of my boats years ago, I was running an '86 30hp Evinrude that needed lower unit work and it hadn't been charging right in a few years, I got the chance to pickup a late 80's Tohatsu 40hp from a buddy who had upgraded to a fancy four stroke with power tilt and trim.
It wasn't just a 10hp improvement, although the motor was heavier, it had a lot more torque, it got out of the hole faster, ran 14 mph faster overall, (with the prop that was on it), and it sipped fuel. I'd run about 15 miles each way on the river every weekend, with the 35hp, I burned through three six gallon tanks. With the Tohatsu 40, I barely got into the second tank and likely could have made it home on one tank. The Tohatsu idled smoother, revved cleaner, and started easier than the 30hp Evinrude ever did.
I did eventually fix the 30hp but I hung that on a smaller boat.
Over the years I've found there's a lot to be said for hanging the most hp a hull is rated for performance wise. What took the 30hp all it had to do, the Tohatsu 40 seemed to do effortlessly.
I always sort of though that the M40C was under rated when it came to hp, or else, simply being so much larger a motor gave it gobs of torque that the 30hp didn't have. I'm not knocking the Evinrude, but the two motors were night and day.
I sold that motor about 9 years ago after wood rot made me send the hull to the dump, but the motor was still going strong. I sold it to a guy who had blown up his '89 50hp Evinrude. He's still running it today. He swears up and down that the 40hp Tohatsu would run circles around his 50hp Evinrude.
When I listed it on CL I had over 50 emails the first hour at $1,500 and that was 8 years ago. I didn't know about any racing with them but it would explain why engines and blocks go for so much on fleabay.

I did a quick google search for that motor and found this on CL, it looks identical to the one I had on my boat, and its cheap too.
https://southjersey.craigslist.org/bpo/d/40hp-tohatsu.html

 

[JimS123]

A 29 year old motor that hasn't been run in eons, vs an oldie JohnnyRude that runs good. Personally, I want to spend my free time boating, not trying to resurrect something laying in someone's garage that has unknown parts to replace.

But that's just me. I'm sure the japan motor is bulletproof, but you have to decide how much time you want to spend getting it running.

 

[mirrocraft16]

When I bought my Mirrocraft Lake Fisherman 16, the original owner had replaced the original motor back in 1984 with a 25hp with electric start, he sold me the boat, and the original motor which was hanging on a board nailed between two trees in the woods behind his house.
It was full of bees and one large snake skin. I tossed it in the boat and left, glad to have the boat and trailer for $1000.
I pressure washed the motor with the hood off, pulled out all the vines, evicted the winged residents, and then pulled both plugs, shot a good bit of oil down each hole and slowly turned the motor over by hand replenishing the oil several times. I then pulled the carb, blew out the jets with carb cleaner, freed up the linkage, and connected a tank and fuel line. It fired up on the third pull.
I then pulled the lower unit, changed out the impeller, cleaned and painted the prop, changed the lower unit oil, and hung it on the boat, Its been there ever since. Three years ago I started getting water in the lower unit, I ended up resealing the lower and replacing the upper bearing, and gave it another new impeller while I was in there.
Condition wise its a bit rough, its done a good bit of saltwater duty and the guy I got it from ran it in brackish and salt water. I think what saved it all those years was its non-use.

Anyhow, I took one of my OMC tanks down to the check out the Tohatsu, I took the old fuel hose fitting he had, found a new oring for it, and put it onto my OMC fuel hose and tank. We filled a recycle tub with water, about 30 gallons, enough to at least submerge the water pump and water intake ports. The wiring turned out to be rather self explanatory, there were only 6 or 7 wires, I connected the dash unit and harness by color, all but two wires could only go one way. It had strong spark so I primed the carb and cranked it over, it fired right up. I didn't see a tell tale stream, nor a place where it might come from, so I just assumed it didn't have one. I did see water moving and getting spit out the upper exhaust port, so I figured it had to be pumping at least some water. I held it at a high idle for a few minutes and it never got hot, so it must be pumping water.
I'd change the impeller regardless. I let it run about a half hour and all seems just fine. My concern is that now he's heard it run, he's liable to change his mind about selling it. I didn't have any doubts about it running, its not like it was stored out in the yard, it was on a stand in a heated garage covered in five or six shipping blankets pumped full of oil every few years.
The downside I noticed is that between starting it and letting it run it drank down the better part of 3 gallons or so just on the stand.

 

[slowleak]

I've been watching two strokes gain in popularity lately, folks are getting tired of both the added maintenance costs of a four stroke and the high cost of purchase. There's certainly no shortage of older motors and you can rebuilt an old motor for a fraction of what any new motor costs, and they make more power.

The problem I see is folks around my way have no cash, nothing sells unless you give it away. There are three types of sellers, those who need cash and will sell for what ever they can get, then you have those who know what they have and will hold out for the proper value, then there's those who have no clue what they just bought and will take the first cash offer. The latter don't stay that way for long, they get educated pretty fast these days with the internet an all.

I had an M40C Tohatsu about four years ago, it came to me off a boat I bought at an estate sale, I sort of knew the owner and it was a fairly well cared for motor. The decals were faded but the rest was good. I bought it to flip and got it cheap. I had a guy who wanted the boat but couldn't afford it, he then told me to keep the motor, and he'd give me $1,200 for the hull, which was fine by me, the motor was worth more than the boat to me anyway.
I pulled the motor, prepped it for storage and put it away for the winter. In the spring that year i listed the motor for sale for $1,200 obo. I got nothing but $50 and $75 offers, (I got the same kind of offers when I listed a two year old Evinrude Etec 115 too).
It was listed all spring and most of the summer with no takers, not a single person showed up or looked at the motor. Nothing but bottom feeder offers.
I got tired of looking at it so I tore it apart, I listed the lower unit, the prop, the mid, the bracket, and ever other individual part on fleabay. In the end, after about 8 weeks, I had gotten far more than I would have taken for the motor whole.
Now, there's no way I'd list one whole and take pocket change for it yet over and over again I'm able to buy perfectly good motors that people can't afford and part them out online.
The bottom line is that folks shopping on eBay can use their credit card, to buy it in person, they need cash, and they don't have it or won't part with it.
I could list them whole on line, but then they want a warranty and I'd have to deal with shipping a whole motor, none of which interests me.
If that $650 Tohatsu was closer, it would be the next one in pieces on fleabay. I sold a bare block there from one just like it for that much last summer and the same for the lower and prop.

 

[JimS123]

I've been watching two strokes gain in popularity lately, folks are getting tired of both the added maintenance costs of a four stroke and the high cost of purchase. There's certainly no shortage of older motors and you can rebuilt an old motor for a fraction of what any new motor costs, and they make more power.

I've been a boater for 67 years and have owned my own boat for 53 years. I collect and restore outboards and have 69 in my boathouse as we speak. Six boats complete the collection, although one is a dinghy so maybe that doesn't count.

I won't argue about cost of purchase, but then again the old adage says you get what you pay for.

The added maintenance comment really isn't true. Yes, a couple quarts of oil, but then again you don't need any TCW3 so it balances out. The EFI motors are trouble-free and the ECMs take care of everything. Points and condensers always made me quiver......LOL.

I was a 2-stroke 'Rude guy for many many years. After only 1 single season with a 4-stroke I was a confirmed 4-stroke guy.

I have a bunch of 2-strokes that go to shows or are just taken out for fun. But when I HAVE to go fishing, or the family goes for a cruise or tubing, all my daily drivers run 4-strokes. They run smoother, no vibration, better gas mileage and they even go faster.

Just my opinion, and its where I spend my money....

 

[slowleak]

I've only been boating for about 50 years or so, more if you count a few junk 10ft jon boats as a kid in the 60's.

I've spent most of my life running OMC outboards, I've got a half dozen 9.9/15hp motors, a 50hp, and a pair of 25hp motors right now. All have been perfect motors.
I also have a 1999 Mariner 9.9 4 stroke, a 2003 Mercury 4 stroke, a 2003 Honda 9.9 4 stroke, and as of this afternoon, a Yamaha 9.9hp 4 stroke with a broken spark plug that I paid $100 for, and a 2005 Honda 40hp 4 stroke, I bought on a boat I owned.

The 9.9hp 4 strokes were mainly for fishing a couple lakes that were four stroke only, 10hp max lakes, I kept picking up cheap used motors because guys wouldn't spend the money to fix them when they went down. The Mercury was one a buddy who passed away bought new and just sits on his old boat for now. The Mariner I bought myself in '99, its an okay motor but its heavy and slow, it will not get a 14ft boat on plane. I and the dealer tried everything but it just don't have enough power. The Merc is on a 16ft boat and it tries hard but it too is slow, maybe 11 mph tops on an open 16ft aluminum boat. The Honda has more low end, pulls harder down low but don't get much speed. It teeters between getting on plane and just plowing water even with just my 325lbs in the boat. The downside of that motor is that it weighs as much as my 25hp Johnson.
The 9.9hp Evinrude gets me to 18 mph well on plane in an empty boat.

The two strokes are quick to rev, quick to get up to speed, and get the boat on plane. The four strokes feel like they're lugging all the time, lots of noise and a big wake but the boat is barely moving.

I had an '83 19ft Renken closed bow, 19ft runabout about 10 years ago, I bought it with a bad 90hp OMC on it. The oil inj. pump failed and burned up the two bottom cylinders. I gave $400 for the boat and trailer.
I found a '89 Evinrude 115 for it used with a bypassed VRO.
I ran that motor till 2008, when I happened on a clean, cheap Yamaha 115 four stroke with power tilt and trim. I bought the Yamaha at auction for only an $800 half hearted bid that I really didn't expect to win. But it came home with me. I hung that on the Renken. With the OMC V4 it did 24mph and got going nicely. It could have used more power and was rated for 150hp max.
With the Yamaha, and lot of experimenting, the best I saw was 18mph and it was slow to get up on plane. A good bit of the problem was the added weight on the transom which put the boat deeper in the water to start out.
I found myself running that thing wide open all the time and I was never happy with it. I sold it to a guy with a pontoon boat and put my OMC back on. I still own the motor but sold the boat a few years ago when I moved here in 2013. Its on a stand in my basement waiting for the next boat I find for it.

For years as fours strokes became more popular I figured when they got cheaper, I'd find a used one, but now after owning a few I have little interest in owning one again, other than to just flip for a profit. The simplicity and reliability of an old two stroke is just too hard to beat. You can fix a set of points out on the water with basic tools, you can't fix a dead ECU or ignition module.
There's also nothing worse than running 12 miles out in the bay and realizing your motor is suddenly overfilled with oil with no good way to deal with it other than draining off some oil on the water hoping not to lose the drain plug in the process while hanging over the back of a small boat, knowing that it's likely going to do it again on the way home and that five trips to the dealer having cured it. That was on my buddies boat with the 9.9 Mercury when it was new. My Mariner has had carb issues since I got it, it runs lean and idles poorly because of it. The dealer told me those were 'emission laden' motors with no means of correcting the lean mixture. The Honda eats an water pump impeller every year and I've replaced the carb three times after not being able to clean it out well enough to get a decent idle after sitting. I've since started removing the carb every fall and cleaning it out then, and keeping it on a shelf in a can with the intake taped shut for storage. The little plastic grommets that hold the carb linkage also keep breaking and letting the linkage fall off the carb. Pretty annoying for a motor that was likely close to $8k new.
The bottom line is that more moving parts means more things to go wrong.

 

[starcraftkid]

I guess I'm a little late to this conversation but I'm seeing the same thing around here, guys who went to small four strokes are turning back to older two strokes when the four stroke breaks down. I'm not sure if its the cost of parts or complexity of them but they don't seem to fix them. There's no shortage of used four stroke motors for cheap that need minor repairs but certain complete two strokes seem to be in more demand than ever.
I also found that hp for hp, many older boats don't handle the added weight of a four stroke. My 14ft boat is rated at 35hp in 1993. I borrowed and tried a 25hp Yamaha tiller motor and I was afraid to run it because the transom was only and inch from going under. I put my 15hp Evinrude back on and could no doubt run a 35 OMC but the 25hp was way too heavy. The combination of the motor, me, a fuel tank, and battery was just too much.

 

[JimS123]

If we are talking about "little" motors, then just maybe there is a difference between them and the bigger ones.

I only have four 4-strokes and they range between 4 and 2 years old. The 60 and 150 run so awesomely quiet with no vibration that at speed all you can hear is water rushing. They both jump out of the hole in an instant. Of course, they are tached out and propped accordingly. When I run the 150 up to about 3000 rpm (35 mph) and dump the throttle it literally pushes you back in the seat. Prop design and 4-stroke technology has come a lonmg way in the past 10 years.

My 2 little guys (kickers) are 3.5 and 5.0 single cylinders. A few years ago there were a lot of complaints about carbs and plugging, etc, so Mercury marine put out a bulletin on how to run and maintain them. I followed the directions. They both start on the first pull. The way the 5.0 Sail Pro pushes a 3000# boat is an awesome sight. It is also propped right.

I agree about easy service and fewer parts for a 2-stroke. Just look at my collection. I got my first Super 10 in 1965. I also agree about harder and more expensive maintenance of a 4-stroke. I can fix a 1940 'Johnny in my workshop, but I don't have the computer program nor the training to fix my new Mercs.

The purported advantage of 4-strokes (beyond what made me switch) are less maintenance and longer service life. Since my clock is still running I'll have to report back in 20 years whether my Mercs or my 1940 10 HP Johnson are still running.

 

[Sea Rider]

When buying a Tohatsu motor the year of manufacture its irrelevant, model is all. Tohatsu stopped production of the M40C some years back. It's not a big deal to put into operation a 2 stroke motor which hasn't been working for some years, clean carb and fuel filters, with motor facing horizontal spray a mixture of 25:1 fuel/oil ration into the combustion chamber, rotate the flywheel slowly at neutral to lube the piston and rings, change impeller, install new spark plugs, change gear oil and that's it. Prop it right to run towards max 5800 wot rpm range and will fly anything that floats...

Happy Boating​

 

[starcraftkid]

I guess its sort of a coincidence but I just got back from towing in a neighbors boat with a two year old Mercury 60hp EFI four stroke. He spent $9k to have his 1999 boat repowered at the end of the 2019 season. It sat most of last year but got used a bit in November with no real issues other than a few hard starts on colder days.
He's been running it in the river on weekends and had some issues so it went back to the dealer. It left him stranded four weeks ago after it died 12 miles from home. Back again to the dealer. They replaced something and gave it back, it wouldn't start for him when he got home. They blamed the fuel.
He got towed in last week, it spent all week at a different dealer, they said its a fuel supply issue but wanted him to replace the fuel tank and lines. He did, it ran okay yesterday, but this afternoon, he was heading out through the cut and it died about a mile out. It would crank but didn't give any sign of firing.
Without cell signal, he had a passing boat call me when he got back. I loaded up my 42 year old aluminum boat with my 40 year old 25hp motor and went to get him. Four hours later he was back on his trailer and heading home. I just got done fiddling with it, its got spark, but it won't so much as bark if I spray fuel at it. There's fuel in the filter, and I took a sample to let it sit overnight but it looks just fine. Certainly not bad enough not to make so much as a pop. I told him to take it back to the dealer and tell them he had to tow it in again. Before he left, while we were talking, I pulled my boat back into the driveway and backed it into my flush tank. He couldn't believe a 25hp would drag his 20ft skiff, or that my old 'junk' two stroke starts on one pull every time. Its his second four stroke, the last one was a Yamaha F50 with carbs that drove him nuts for years, they never got that motor right.
Now this one is a dud too. There's nothing we could do to diag the EFI, its up to a dealer, and what would scare me is that the dealer didn't seem to confident the last he took it in. He's been told its his fault nearly every time. its either the fuel, the saltwater, the portable tank, static electricity, the ethanol, you name it. I'm betting that this time next year that thing will have some old two stroke on it too. The bad part is its liable to start just fine tomorrow. Its done that before too.
I'll stick to my carbed two strokes.

 

[JimS123]

Yesireebob. No coincidence at all. All the boats I see being towed are 4-strokes, never a 2-stroke.

But having said that, the guy with the 60 EFI must simply have a lemon. Way too many issues on the same motor. But since its still under warranty maybe the lemon law would give him a new motor. OTOH, I wonder if 2 motors in a row is really a coinikydink.

 

[starcraftkid]

He's towing it to a larger dealer who said they'd look at it today.
It wouldn't start at first this morning, it just cranked. He said he gave it a try right before hooking up the trailer and it fired right up like nothing was wrong, but it died abruptly and wouldn't start after that.
The first motor came with the boat.
That one had constant carb issues and it would die under power all the time. You had to be real careful letting off the throttle or it would shut off and not want to restart, it did that from day one way back when. He went round and round trying to get that resolved. I even went through the carbs and fuel pump myself but it made no difference. Yamaha had given him the chance to trade it in, at a substantial cost to him, saying that there were 'unsolvable problems' with that motor. When the lower unit started to leak he sold it and looked elsewhere and ended up with the Mercury due to price. He wasn't going back to Yamaha and Honda was a lot more money and there was no local source for Suzuki. If it were me, I'd feel like I just threw $9k overboard because this motor is worse than the last one. At least the old motor always ran, it just stalled and bogged a lot. It never left him completely stranded. I'm sure sitting most of last year didn't help but its still running on a portable tank and he's got multiple tanks. He dumped all the fuel into his truck when it got put away that first season.
If that were my boat I'd find a good 70hp Evinrude or Johnson for it, toss the VRO and never look back. It would run faster, be cheaper to fix, and likely outlast the boat.

 

[Sea Rider]

Do you plan going after the Tohatsu M40C ?

Happy Boating​

 

[mirrocraft16]

I already have it on my boat, I took it for a quick test run Sunday morning, then I came back, swapped to the other prop, and made a few cable adjustments and took it back out today.
(the motor in the link posted before here isn't the one I bought, it looks to be the same year and model but mine was never advertised that I know of.). Knowing what I've learned over the past few days about these, I'd likely jump on that one on CL because most I've seen for sale are more than double that. I actually didn't find many Tohatsu motors for sale used.
I used a set of Quicksilver controls from an old Mariner I had years ago, even the connectors matched up on the Tohatsu, just a few color differences. Its basically just the battery feed to the switch, a start signal wire to the starter solenoid, a ground wire and a choke wire. The cable ends worked fine, just threaded ends, like on an old Chrysler or Yamaha motor.

I ended up going with the steeper pitch prop, it put me around 5300 wot, the other one was letting it go past 6100.

Power wise its night and day, its brutal out of the whole, its fast enough that you really have to consciously think about holding on and staying in your seat. (The boat is light, maybe 800 lbs or so plus me, a battery, and the fuel tank). I found myself hooking the toes of my shoes around the front edges of the console on accelleration so I didn't slide back off the bench seat.
All I was using for the battery today was a small mower battery with the cables bolted to it. It was that or the deep cycle from my other boat.
It starts easy, and its nice having electric start and not having to stand and hover over the motor to get it started. I hit the key and pulled away from the dock letting it warm up as I slowly headed toward the main river. It was ready to go by the time I hit the main channel and I slowly took it up to speed, watching a clip on tach out the corner of my eye that I had taped to the back bench.
It may only be a 10hp actual increase in power, but it feels more like double the power out of the hole and top speed went from what I'd call comfortably fast for a 16ft open aluminum boat to borderline scary running all out on a choppy river. After the first long run I stopped and moved the motor pin down a hole to push the bow down bit and that helped a lot. Now I can see where I'm going. Running this boat now reminds me of years ago when as kids we hung a 25hp Johnson motor on a little 10 or 12ft row boat and took it out on the lake there. I also tried the manual start on the water and it didn't take much to get it to fire up using the rope starter either. I like having that option.
I do have to remember to change the annode on this to one that can do saltwater, the one on is stamped "Freshwater only, (MG)" and even a quick run into some saltier water left it a bit fuzzy looking even after only a couple days in salty or brackish water. My 35hp had three, one behind the prop, and one bolted to the one plate on the lower unit, and one on the engine bracket. I also need to add a tell tale hose to this, apparently they didn't add one from the factory until the later 90's.

When I got home, I took my neighbor the $850 cash. I was impressed enough with the change that I really wasn't worried about trying to get a few dollars off the price and whether or not he actually had another offer or not, I can see why these are so in demand. I also told him that when I get everything mounted permanently in time, I'll take him for a run on the river on the next day that's not blistering hot like it was today.

 

[reelfishin]

As the years go on here, I see fewer new four strokes and more and more older two strokes on the water.
Most four strokes are in three sizes, 115hp, on many newer pontoons and larger aluminum boats, 40hp tiller motors on duck boats, and 9.9hp tiller motors on little 14 and 16ft boats run in fresh water where gas power is allowed. Everything else is two stroke. Those older Tohatsu motors were one step from being commercial duty motors, I've never had to tear one down, I don't think I've ever seen one worn out, and they punch so far above their weight and HP rating most simply won't believe it until they see for themselves.
I had an '87 for about 6 years on a 14ft MFG Niagara, it replaced a 50hp Evinrude that died a sudden death on me. (Broken wrist pin at 5500 rpm).
For a short time I replaced the Tohatsu with a 40hp Honda four stroke that came to me on a Whaler with a busted up hull.
I ran the four stroke and enjoyed the ease of use and power tilt and trim, but the swap lost me over 12mph overall and the Honda was just too heavy for the small boat. I went back to the Tohatsu and never once regretted it. The only thing I regret was selling that boat with that motor. I've had a dozen boats since that would have benefited from that motor.
To top it all off, they built those basically unchanged for something like 20 years. They may still be selling those in other countries. I sold mine in 2012, and the dealer I dealt with told me in 2011 they were still showing as current in a few other countries. The M40C was the only Tohatsu I ever owned except for a few Mercury 9.9hp motors built by them, I always wondered how their larger motors were, but all I see are the 40hp motors, both then and now.