US Coast Guard

External Combustion

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
608
Re: US Coast Guard

The list of serious things that you can crash one into is too long to fully put here. For eye openers let's try any major dam, ammunition ships, fertilizer ships, locks, interstate bridges...... All of these have been done with disasterous results. Any other questions?
 

angus63

Captain
Joined
May 20, 2002
Messages
3,726
Re: US Coast Guard

The list of serious things that you can crash one into is too long to fully put here. For eye openers let's try any major dam, ammunition ships, fertilizer ships, locks, interstate bridges...... All of these have been done with disasterous results. Any other questions?
You left out grain ships, more hazardous and explosive than a tanker.
 

Booberdoo

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
40
Re: US Coast Guard

The list of serious things that you can crash one into is too long to fully put here. For eye openers let's try any major dam, ammunition ships, fertilizer ships, locks, interstate bridges...... All of these have been done with disasterous results. Any other questions?

The USS Cole and the death of over a dozen sailors comes to mind; done with a small boat.

Like I tell my kids, don't break the law and you won't feel the need to worry.
 

sunaj

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
109
Re: US Coast Guard

I hope no one is suppporting the doctrine of unlimited search based on the fact that accidents or sabotage occurs, it is that line of reasoning that has allowed the erosion of our rights, especially in the last 8 years, and on this subject I am refering to personal craft, not commercial vessels
 

Booberdoo

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
40
Re: US Coast Guard

I hope no one is suppporting the doctrine of unlimited search based on the fact that accidents or sabotage occurs, it is that line of reasoning that has allowed the erosion of our rights, especially in the last 8 years, and on this subject I am refering to personal craft, not commercial vessels

I'm new here, and I have been reading lots of threads to learn as much as possible but I found this topic interesting and thought provoking.

I don't support unwarranted and unlimited searches, but where does one draw the line? The "bad guys" trample the innocents' rights on a regular basis; maybe they should be required to obtain permits to do so?

Sounds silly, but how does society combat the problem? We pay officials to protect us from them. Yet if we "tie their hands", so to speak how do they perform their duties?

With the erosion of values we are seeing today, it is inevitable that we sacrifice some to obtain another... the only way around it is to fix society; and I don't see that happening.

So, back to the subject; my opinion is that the USCG is a very well trained and experienced entity, and those guys can pick out suspicious activity where the common citizen cannot. Also, I have found the USCG to be very professional and courteous as well, so I personally have no problem with them checking me out if need be. That's just me.

I do agree that there are over zealous LEO out there, but the vast majority are simply out there doing their job to keep all of us safe.

So now, where does the line get drawn? I don't have the answer, but I do know if the LEO fail to stop a crime they are condemned; if they hassle someone where no crime is taking place their condemned. It is rare to see an officer honored for the simple acts of kindness and heroics they perform on a dayly basis.

So what is the answer? These are the types of conversations I enjoy because they leave a lot of room for thought.
 

External Combustion

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
608
Re: US Coast Guard

The failure to understand is because most here think that navigating a boat or a personal craft is a right. Historically this is just not so. From our English roots to the early days of this nation, many "patents" have granted exclusive navigation rights to individuals or companies, but has not given it to the general populace.

Our nation has been very tolerent of private navigation and thus many people think it is a right instead of a privilege.

We could easily use "probable cause" to get around getting boarded without a warrent by restricting private vessels from navigating the same waters that government facilities are located, necessary cargos are transported to, goverment cleared channels that commerce uses and warships travel. This would reduce the risk to our nations people and economy. There would not be many places to boat like this though.

Since navigation is legally a privilege, boarding just to inspect the vessel is just a way of life. If you don't like the law, work to change it
 

sunaj

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
109
Re: US Coast Guard

I as well as others realize the history of the law, I just think it is unconstitutional, as applied to personal craft. I am suprised I have not heard of boaters collectively sueing to correct this, I think that is a great idea, and I for one would definitely sign up
 

ilmostro99

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
120
Re: US Coast Guard

The line is "probable cause"

Ok, now define "probable cause". It gets really touchy. I'd think that the vast majority of boardings are vaguely defined as probable cause. The problem that law enforcement runs into, is that 9 times out of 10, the "probable cause" that you are talking about is "profiling", and in today's PC society, profiling is a big no-no. Don't get me wrong, personally, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with profiling. We all do it and it is what keeps us alive every day. You see a gang of thugs coming at you on a street and you try to avoid them, - Profiling. Having a party and don't want to invite the meth-head, - Profiling. See a pit bull or a rott and don't get out of your car, - Profiling. You have no knowledge that any of these situations are going to cause you bodily harm, yet based upon your past experiences, you chose to avoid a potential problem by pre-judging an individual rather than "getting to know him"; all in all, a smart move. LE deals with the scum in our society every day, and let's face it, they usually fit a certain description or are doing certain actions that based upon past experience, the officer suspects something wrong. Sometimes it is just a feeling they get that cannot be rationally, verbally explained, and often times this "hunch" turns out to be true. How do you protect society when criminals have all the rights and your hands are tied by PC laws.
Don't get me wrong, there is nobody here that is more against a police state, and into personal freedoms than me, but how do we stop the criminals when we tie the hands of those we employ to protect us?
On the other side of the coin, many boardings are done simply as safety inspections. I have seen many people put their kids in lifejackets in such poor condition that I wouldn't put my dog in it. Sometimes they just don't know any better and figure a life jacket is a life jacket, and it is only there to abide by the letter of the law, thinking nothing bad will ever happen to them. Sometimes they didn't know that it was unsafe, and sometimes they are just stupid. It is impossible to quantify how many lost lives and avoided accidents these boardings save, let alone how much money is saved in rescue attempts. Let me tell you, they are not cheap. Think about how much money it costs you to go to the lake in fuel, upkeep, etc., now multiply that by the 20 or so boats that have to go out on a recovery/rescue. How much fuel does a helicopter burn in a rescue attempt? In this case, $10 prevention is worth about $100,000 cure.
If nothing else, if I have to endure the occasional boarding to save THOUSANDS in tax dollars, so be it.
My $.02
Erik
 

SgtMaj

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,997
Re: US Coast Guard

Like I tell my kids, don't break the law and you won't feel the need to worry.

THAT'S not true... with stories in the news every day about crooked cops, or even well meaning cops who overstep their authority... or just plain make bad decisions.

Take that cop in FL who pepper sprayed and arrested the mcdonalds employee who refused to give him a refund at her manager's direction... first of all, that cop deserves to be killed as far as I am concerned... but second off, the employee did nothing wrong, yet had reason to worry.

How about the NC rugby players? obviously they had a reason to worry even though they didn't break the law...

Then there's those times when the cops are serving a righteous warrant, but get the address wrong...

Then there's the new fad... swatting... where hackers make fake 911 calls directing swat teams to random houses by saying people are being held hostage at gunpoint inside...

Just because a cop has a badge doesn't mean he or she is a good person, and even if they are a good person, it doesn't mean they never make mistakes.
 

Booberdoo

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
40
Re: US Coast Guard

THAT'S not true... with stories in the news every day about crooked cops, or even well meaning cops who overstep their authority... or just plain make bad decisions.

Take that cop in FL who pepper sprayed and arrested the mcdonalds employee who refused to give him a refund at her manager's direction... first of all, that cop deserves to be killed as far as I am concerned... but second off, the employee did nothing wrong, yet had reason to worry.

How about the NC rugby players? obviously they had a reason to worry even though they didn't break the law...

Then there's those times when the cops are serving a righteous warrant, but get the address wrong...

Then there's the new fad... swatting... where hackers make fake 911 calls directing swat teams to random houses by saying people are being held hostage at gunpoint inside...

Just because a cop has a badge doesn't mean he or she is a good person, and even if they are a good person, it doesn't mean they never make mistakes.

Being the victim of a mistaken address I undertstand where you are coming from. Reallity is that LEO are people same as the rest of us, and the vast majority are decent and honorable. Sure, there are cases of innocents in prison and such; as technology and forensics continue to advance there will be less chances of it happening. The few bad cops out there give the rest a bad name, and it's too bad.

The USCG maintains different responsibilities and has different rights as mentioned previously. I personally have the utmost respect for them and they are welcome to board me anytime. Who was out there after Katrina plucking victims out of the mess while our government sat around with their thumbs up their respective butts?

As far as probable cause:

"Where once "felony" meant things like murder, rape, or armed robbery, now it includes things like music piracy, or filling in potholes that turn out to be "wetlands." As the title to a recent book edited by Gene Healy notes, we've achieved the criminalization of almost everything.

Which means, in fact, the criminalization of almost everyone, too -- if you haven't been convicted of some felony or other, it's probably because no prosecutor has tried to put you away, not because you haven't committed one, whether you realized it at the time or not."

(Prof. Reynolds)

With the constant enactment and repealing of laws, maybe probable cause will soon mean having the wrong color hair for the model car you're driving.

Bottom line, if LEO wants to stop you, LEO will find a reason.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: US Coast Guard

The discussion of personal freedoms is certainly valid, and I agree with Sarge that there are many situations where true innocence has nothing to do with whether or not you can be arrested, searched, etc., but I think we need to focus on the specific "leo experience" at hand.

The vast majority of boardings and/or inspections by the USCG are conducted courteously and quickly. They also don't happen very often to the average boater. I am in my fifties and have been operating small boats since I was about 8, yet I have only been randomly inspected a few times. Further, every one of those times was by a Wildlife & Fisheries agent who was simply checking for fish size and limit compliance. The only time I have ever been inspected by the USCG, is when I have actively sought out an CG Auxillary unit to give my boat the "once over," and provide me with a windshield sticker.

There is also a benefit to being inspected - you learn things. In another thread, we were talking about emergency items to have on your boat. I mentioned keeping blank CDs for use as signalling devices. I learned that trick from a CG Aux inspector during a courtesy inspection. I would have never thought of it otherwise and I think it is a great idea, so I am glad for the inspection and the advice.

Reminding our governmental entities that they work for us, and keeping them in check when they get out of line, is certainly not a bad thing. At the same time, not all government oversight is a bad thing and I think this is one of the areas where that is true.
 

Haut Medoc

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
10,645
Re: US Coast Guard

The jack booted thugs stop me at least once a year, even with the auxillary inspection sticker...:mad:
While container ships full of illegal immigrants flood into the ports of Seattle & Tacoma....;)
What needs to happen, though the PC crowd would whine, is PROFILING......:rolleyes:
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: US Coast Guard

having boated for over 50 years, there needs to be far more over zealous LEO's on the water, expecially on holidays. the days of common sense and courtesy are long gone. the financial penaltys for bad boating, need to be tripled. that way they will mean something, and the receiver will fuss to all his friends, but that will get the point across,--- Don't Screw Up On The Water. also the requirement that you take a in class boating class and test, before registering a boat. you can't get a car tag with out a license.
 

Drowned Rat

Captain
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Messages
3,070
Re: US Coast Guard

I never thought of myself as a "Jack booted thug". Interesting description. What does it mean exactly?
 

TBarCYa

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Messages
781
Re: US Coast Guard

Every time I take my kids (ages 10 and 12) on the water, the conversation usually starts in the car about safety issues on the boat. I remind them that they MUST wear their PFDs whenever under way (followed by What does under way mean?) and what their jobs are and every time I remind them that there is always the possibility that we could get boarded by the state police or coast guard. The way I look at it and present it to them is that they are checking to make sure that everyone aboard the boat is safe and that her captain is operating responsibly. It's far easier to get killed boating than most other activities so having the authorities with enough authority to do their jobs keeps everyone (including me) in check.

As far as the probable cause goes, I would think that if a visual inspection (without boarding) doesn't reveal every piece of required equipment, then they have probable cause to board.
 

obezag

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
109
Re: US Coast Guard

I'm pretty sure "jack booted thug" refers to gestapo like tactics by law enforcement. A little harsh.
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: US Coast Guard

one of the main reasons for inspections is. if you have an incident in a car, you can get out and stand on the side of the road. kind of hard to do in a boat.
 

Haut Medoc

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
10,645
Re: US Coast Guard

I'm pretty sure "jack booted thug" refers to gestapo like tactics by law enforcement. A little harsh.
You obviously have not interrupted & stared at the cold steel of an M16 while drift fishing......
It is quite unnerving......
The safety inspection thing is just a premise, why would you need to board a 22 foot boat with no lower deck?.....
It is tantamount to "Show me zee papers"....:mad:
DR, thank you for guarding our Arizona shoreline......:)
 
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