Trailer surge brakes

[lvhdude]

You could have ordered a New Titan Dico surge unit and installed it on your trailer and completely working by now.

And yes...replace the wheel cylinders.

Yeah, if I wanted to wire my truck for a reverse lockout or swap the brake assemblies out for free backing units. I didnt find any replacements with a mechanical lockout like the atwood. I will pop the wheel cylinders apart to inspect condition. Thanks.

 

[lvhdude]

Ordered new wheel cylinders, got it all working. Turns out my single side wheel cylinder type brakes only have about 20% braking in reverse as they do not self energize like they do going forward so I probably could have just replaced the surge brake unit and not worried about the free backing brake assemblies. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Lou C]

I've had the free backing drums for nearly 20 years and never had trouble backing up, the only troubles I've had is the wheel cyls seizing up and the same with the adjusters. Found a way to make both last longer so I didn't have to change to disc brakes. The last set I installed have the bootless wheel cyls that look to be a better design.

 

[Drcoffee]

I bought a new old stock atwood surge brake on ebay.

(Contact Seller joemst) Installed it last Spring and it works great. I paid $116 shipped. He has plenty of them as he bought the last 500 units. Im good for the next 20 years LOL IF THE BOAT LASTS THAT LONG​

I fabbed up a lever to keep the lock-out engaged while in reverse. I also replaced all the brake lines with nicop lines and new brake assemblies with shoes. The only original parts are the drums and rubber line up at the tongue.

 

[Drcoffee]

I also resleeved the axles, new bearing and kept getting water inside until I installed brearing caps with zip ties to seal them.

 

[lvhdude]

I also resleeved the axles, new bearing and kept getting water inside until I installed brearing caps with zip ties to seal them.

View attachment 375412

Nice Job! Thanks for the info.

 

[bruceb58]

I bought a new old stock atwood surge brake on ebay.

(Contact Seller joemst) Installed it last Spring and it works great. I paid $116 shipped. He has plenty of them as he bought the last 500 units. Im good for the next 20 years LOL IF THE BOAT LASTS THAT LONG​

I fabbed up a lever to keep the lock-out engaged while in reverse. I also replaced all the brake lines with nicop lines and new brake assemblies with shoes. The only original parts are the drums and rubber line up at the tongue.

View attachment 375411

I stopped using hard lines years ago. Wherever a hard line rubs against metal(like along your axle)you will eventually get a hole in it. I just use rubber lines.

 

[Drcoffee]

I stopped using hard lines years ago. Wherever a hard line rubs against metal(like along your axle)you will eventually get a hole in it. I just use rubber lines.

Good point. I will cover it with spiral wrap.

 

[poconojoe]

I dumped my surge brakes for all electric and love them.

No more hydraulic lines, bleeding of brakes, bad wheel cylinders, etc. Plus my master cylinder looked corroded and most likely needed replacement. To me it seemed my system was too far in disrepair.

I also hated that slapping noise every time I stepped on the brakes or accelerated from a stop.

I bought completely assembled self adjusting baking plates that were a direct fit and I was able to save money by using my existing drums.
No problems baking up either. Just put the truck in reverse!

I had to add an electric breakaway which included it's own battery backup.

I changed the wire that plugs into the truck to the 7 pin. The one I got came with a junction box for tidy connections of everything.

I tore out all the hydraulic lines and ran wires to each wheel for the actuators.

I put a bolt through the coupler so it no longer slides. No more slapping noise.

My truck already had the factory integrated (electric) brake controller.

Seriously, compare what all that will cost you to the cost of repairing what you have. See if converting is an option for you.

 

[bruceb58]

I kinda get why people switch to electric drum brakes but to me, they are still crappy drum brakes. I just took the electric drum brakes off my travel trailers becuase they just don't work well. I was on the freeway coming back from a trip and traffic slowed fast...I was on the brakes hard and I was lucky I stopped in time. I had the gain set super high and all my brakes are perfectly adjusted...still didn't matter.

I put my new disc brakes on with EOH and it is a night and day difference. Now I have both my Cobalt and my travel trailer with EOH disc brakes.

Another great thing about disc brakes...maintenance is easier and I am more easily able to carry a spare hub.

 

[poconojoe]

I kinda get why people switch to electric drum brakes but to me, they are still crappy drum brakes. I just took the electric drum brakes off my travel trailers becuase they just don't work well. I was on the freeway coming back from a trip and traffic slowed fast...I was on the brakes hard and I was lucky I stopped in time. I had the gain set super high and all my brakes are perfectly adjusted...still didn't matter.

I put my new disc brakes on with EOH and it is a night and day difference. Now I have both my Cobalt and my travel trailer with EOH disc brakes.

Another great thing about disc brakes...maintenance is easier and I am more easily able to carry a spare hub.

No doubt, disc brakes are far superior to drum brakes, hands down.

I guess it would also have a lot to do with the weight of your trailer.
My boat/trailer, etc is probably under 4,000 pounds and the electric drums are working great for me. After all, it came from the factory with (surge) drums. I also only boat in fresh water. That might matter too when choosing disc/drums. I think discs are better if you're dipping in salt water.

I have the truck's brake controller adjusted so the trailer tires are just at the point of not breaking loose during an emergency brake situation. If I turn the brake controller up to max, the trailer tires will lock up if I jam on the brakes.

EOH conversion is very expensive, but if it's neccessary for your setup, you can't put a price on safety. I'm sure a Jack-knifed trailer would not be a fun scenario!

 

[bruceb58]

No doubt, disc brakes are far superior to drum brakes, hands down.

I guess it would also have a lot to do with the weight of your trailer.
My boat/trailer, etc is probably under 4,000 pounds and the electric drums are working great for me. After all, it came from the factory with (surge) drums. I also only boat in fresh water. That might matter too when choosing disc/drums. I think discs are better if you're dipping in salt water.

I have the truck's brake controller adjusted so the trailer tires are just at the point of not breaking loose during an emergency brake situation. If I turn the brake controller up to max, the trailer tires will lock up if I jam on the brakes.

EOH conversion is very expensive, but if it's neccessary for your setup, you can't put a price on safety. I'm sure a Jack-knifed trailer would not be a fun scenario!

True...my boat weighs 6500# and my travel trailer weighs 6000#. For a lighter boat/trailer, wouldn't be worth the cost. On my travel trailer, it was close to $2400 for the whole thing.

 

[Lou C]

Maintenance with discs is much easier. The first brakes I learned to repair were drum brakes on mid '60s VWs. Pretty simple, but my '70s American cars all had discs up front and drums on the rear. If I were using disc brakes on the trailer in our salt water here, I'd have to use stainless because the non-stainless like Cad plated or other variations don't last, they corrode worse than brake drums do from what I see with trailers equipped with cheaper drum brakes. My old axle with drums I used for 17 years here and changed the backing plates a few times over time (2x, a pair of 10" drum backing plates was like $110, and took a half hr per side to change). When I got the new axle I upsized to 12" drums, they stop it very well, for 5000 lbs on a single axle trailer. We have some very steep hills in my neighborhood, not high speeds but very steep.
Old axle:


12" brakes vs 10"


new axle (6000 lbs)

 

[dingbat]

Looks like Bruce 58 and I run the same Kodiak disc setup.

I run stainless backed, ceramics pads on mine…much better pad, or should I say much better backing plate life than the stock pads

Salt only…got almost 8 years out of the last set of calipers before the piston in one of seized up. Having slider issues with the other so just replaced both rather than mess around rebuilding them.

Much to my surprise the rotors still had enough meat left to be turned so my 8 year old rotors lived to see another day

 

[jlh3rd]

I dumped my surge brakes for all electric and love them.

No more hydraulic lines, bleeding of brakes, bad wheel cylinders, etc. Plus my master cylinder looked corroded and most likely needed replacement. To me it seemed my system was too far in disrepair.

I also hated that slapping noise every time I stepped on the brakes or accelerated from a stop.

I bought completely assembled self adjusting baking plates that were a direct fit and I was able to save money by using my existing drums.
No problems baking up either. Just put the truck in reverse!

I had to add an electric breakaway which included it's own battery backup.

I changed the wire that plugs into the truck to the 7 pin. The one I got came with a junction box for tidy connections of everything.

I tore out all the hydraulic lines and ran wires to each wheel for the actuators.

I put a bolt through the coupler so it no longer slides. No more slapping noise.

My truck already had the factory integrated (electric) brake controller.

Seriously, compare what all that will cost you to the cost of repairing what you have. See if converting is an option for you.

exactly what I did. I battled my trailers surge braking system...new master cylinder and tongue assembly , new brake assembles(4), new timkens,...for 3 years after buying the boat and trailer . They grabbed, got hot, bucked , jerked...I bled, adjusted, double checked, triple checked....nothing worked......No disc brake system would fit.....
So I went electric, Truck came pre-wired ....works great....

 

[dingbat]

When I got the new axle I upsized to 12" drums, they stop it very well, for 5000 lbs on a single axle trailer. We have some very steep hills in my neighborhood, not high speeds but very steep.

My first thoughts…….unless you replaced the brake actuator with larger, higher output model you’ve decreased your braking capacity 20% or more going from 10” to 12” drum brakes.

I say “or more” because 20% only takes into account the increased torque (F= T x R) from the radius change.

Don't know the change in surface area between a 10” and 12” brake pad. Brake pressure could be reduced substantially more with a disproportional increase in surface area

 

[Lou C]

It’s rated for 6,600 lbs. And was able to be used with four 10” brake assemblies so I don’t think there’s a problem.
The 10” shoes are wider than the 12” shoes. 10.25” vs 12”

 

[Horigan]

My first thoughts…….unless you replaced the brake actuator with larger, higher output model you’ve decreased your braking capacity 20% or more going from 10” to 12” drum brakes.

I say “or more” because 20% only takes into account the increased torque (F= T x R) from the radius change.

Don't know the change in surface area between a 10” and 12” brake pad. Brake pressure could be reduced substantially more with a disproportional increase in surface area

Not quite. Brake torque equals force times torque radius, (T = F x R). Even if the brake piston size remains the same, the shoe friction load is further away from the axle (higher torque radius), so going with a larger drum or disc will result in higher brake torque.

Now if the wheel and/or tire size was also increased to accommodate the larger drum, this would negate the benefit since a larger tire diameter with given brake torque will result in a lower overall braking force on the trailer.

The wider shoe would provide more of thermal benefit than a brake torque benefit.

PS: I used to be a brake systems engineer for Boeing Commercial.

 

[Lou C]

While you could have 14” rims with 215/75-14 tires with 10” brakes I had long before switched from that to a 225/75-15 tire on a 15” rim. Didn’t notice a difference when I still had 10” drums. When I went to the 12” drums with 6 lugs I stuck with 15” rims & same size tires. I’m curious about this: is the suppposed self energizing quality of drum brakes actually an advantage vs discs in a surge system? I recall reading this on Champion Trailers tech articles but not sure if it is of any practical significance. The idea being that the surge coupler only develops hydraulic pressure in proportion to the weight of the trailer pushing against the trailer hitch. A lighter trailer may not develop as much hydraulic pressure as a heavier one so their point was that drum brakes work better with lighter towed loads, due to their self energizing characteristic.

 

[Horigan]

I’m curious about this: is the suppposed self energizing quality of drum brakes actually an advantage vs discs in a surge system?

That's a good question. I suspect the "self-energization" has a relatively small effect on overall performance given all the things at play in these surge systems. For instance:
- Larger surge actuator piston diameter would create lower brake pressure (bad), but less actuator stroke or movement (good).
- Larger brake piston diameter (drum or disc) results in higher brake torque and force (good), but more actuator stroke or movement. (bad)
- Unique to surge brake systems is that actuator pressure is a function of trailer weight MINUS braking force, which is a function of actuator pressure. That's why it's critical these systems have dampers and orifices so you don't get into a brake on-off oscillation situation.

There are a lot of dynamics and differences between drum and disc systems in how much brake force is generated for a given trailer deceleration load. Given the above, I'm not surprised you didn't notice any difference when going to larger wheels.

I believe disc brakes, in general, produce more brake torque than drum brakes for a given pressure and fluid volume. At least that's what I felt when I switched to discs, but I'm not an expert on drum brakes. Airplane brakes are all multi-rotor designs.