To self bail or not?

[oneoldude]

I am in the beginning stages of a conversion project that can be seen at: http://www.shareaproject.com/projectTut.php?p=10 <br /><br />While I have not yet dug into the floor and foam I suspect that it is very bad and will have to come up. When the hull is bare the first question I have is wether to convert the boat to a self bailer. The floor would have to come up a lot and the cost of two part foam would be very substantial. But how would the raised floor and raised center of gravity affect handling and safety? Should I consider the change or use a bilge pump and stay with the floor at the original design level? Any advice?<br /><br />Thanks

 

[Winger Ed.]

Re: To self bail or not?

Raising the floor will also raise your center of gravity,,,, maybe not enough to matter, as far as handeling is concerned, but it will be higher.<br /><br />If ya raise the floor, I'd wonder about how you're going to secure it to the tops of the stringers. The way the floor attaches to them gives the hull it's strength to resist a twisting motion.<br /><br />If you have so much water coming over the sides & bow, you might need to make it self bailing. But gosh, that'd sure be alot. Another issue would be if the scupper holes would gravity feed water out faster or slower than a decent size pump could push it out. <br /><br />If I was doing it, and got a fair amount of water inside, I'd think in turns of putting 2 big bilge pumps in rather than raising the floor. Not only would the hull be stronger and more stable, you'd save a little weight too. A slab of that foam the size of the entire floor is heavier than most people think.

 

[phatmanmike]

Re: To self bail or not?

hey, that sone cool boat man. im sure you could make that thing into a flats boat, no problem. pretty strait forward , actually. <br /><br />dont nock those motors, man, ive owned a few of them. they are relatively light weight for the hp and they usually do have a pretty bad idle cause they are only 2 cylinders, not very smooth.<br /><br />if you wanna get rid of that motor, or if you want a beautifull 1981 merc 40hp 2 cylinder that is 50 pounds LESS than that you have, email me, im in largo, bout 50 miles north.<br /><br />that boat would really kick some major arse if it had a jack plate and a pole platform. kick arse!!!!!!!<br /><br />or just sell me the hole darned thing!!! i like that stuff.<br /><br />ill trade ya my mother in law for the boat!

 

[oneoldude]

Re: To self bail or not?

Originally posted by Winger Ed.:<br />If ya raise the floor, I'd wonder about how you're going to secure it to the tops of the stringers. The way the floor attaches to them gives the hull it's strength to resist a twisting motion.

The solution here would be to make replacement stringers of the proper height so that the floor could be screwed into them. <br /><br />The weight issue is interesting. Even though I have not measured anything yet, let's make some assumptions. Let's say the floor will comprise 40 square feet and we have to raise the floor by 4" or .333 feet. Using that factor the additional cubic feet of foam would be about 12 cubic feet and at 2# per the additional weight would be 24#. Using 4# foam the additional weight would be 48#. The floor would be larger than it is now and so there would be some additional ply weight. But there are bolsters full of foam in the stern and they could be removed to the extent the raised floor foam made up for them. It might end up to be a wash.

 

[Winger Ed.]

Re: To self bail or not?

Originally posted by oneoldude:<br />

2# per the additional weight would be 24#.

That's true. That stuff is calculated to be 2# sq.ft. under labratory like conditions. It usually comes out heavier. I'd definitly use the 2# stuff. The strength of it is incredible, and the 4# would be overkill on top of overkill, and a extra 24-odd pounds wouldn't be a big deal, but it would about double your cost for the foam.<br /><br />Raising up the stringers is the way to do it. Most folks wouldn't think of that. Its a great project, but I wonder if you're making alot of extra work & expense for yourself by raising the floor. <br /><br />To need a self bailing feature for the inside of the hull,,,, If you're not getting some horendous amount of water coming in, I wonder if it isn't a solution for a problem that really doesn't exist. <br /><br />Something that just dawned on me is if you loaded the boat sometime with a couple extra passengers or gear, and it ran a little deeper-- water might actually come in through the scuppers if you were in a 'following sea' or got caught out as a storm can in on ya.<br /><br />A inch or so of water sloshing around isn't a big deal, and it'd run right back out,,,,, but it is a little un-nerving to those who aren't used to seeing much water moving around inside a boat.<br /><br />That is one heck of a boat. At this stage of the game, if you're working towards making it the ultimate fishing machine, you might also consider ripping out all the interior.<br /><br />That would open up more options as far as making a center console driver's station and casting platforms both 'fore & aft.<br /><br />Going from there- you could make it lighter and stronger than it was the day it left the factory, and it'd be light enough to run on wet grass.

 

[oneoldude]

Re: To self bail or not?

Originally posted by Winger Ed.:<br /> .....Its a great project, but I wonder if you're making alot of extra work & expense for yourself by raising the floor. ...... Something that just dawned on me is if you loaded the boat sometime with a couple extra passengers or gear, and it ran a little deeper-- water might actually come in through the scuppers if you were in a 'following sea' or got caught out as a storm can in on ya. ....

Winger Ed,<br /><br />You raise interesting points. But think of the following: (1). The idea of USCG approved floatation is to keep a boat from sinking. If the flotation is spread around the boat, high and low, the boat can swamp and will sit there partially sunken with perhaps only the gunnels above water. All occupants will be sitting in water while waiting for rescue. But if all the flotation is in the floor and the boat is self bailing, a complete swamp will pop up like a cork and keep the interior mostly dry while waiting for help. (2). Even with a self bailor you should have a small bilge at the rear with a pump to keep the stern light and dry from occasional water that comes in from any source. (3). Every self bailing boat I have ever been in has a floor that is too low to keep the rear of the boat dry with only one occupant in it, especially with a following sea. They are worse with extra occupants and the one way scupper valves do not work well. The result is that there is always an inch or so of water at the stern that will only clear when under way. Here is a situation where a home builder can do a better job than the factory by simply making the floor higher. (4). There is something uniquely comforting about a boat that will not sink, no matter what happens.<br /><br />The above having been said, I still have not decided what I will do. The boat will never be outside of sight of land (I get sea sick) but will do duty in passes and around channels. Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.

 

[Winger Ed.]

Re: To self bail or not?

Originally posted by oneoldude:<br />

Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.

Hmmm,,,<br />sounds like ya got a handle on the situation, and are much farther ahead of the game than most I see up & down here-abouts.<br /><br />Good luck with it....<br /><br />You sort of reminded me of a post in a Ann Lander's column several years ago:<br /><br />A lady wrote in and said, "Ann, I recently was served a apple at a friend's house., When I bit into it, I saw a worm. I ate around the worm, but wasn't sure how to properly handle that situation should it happen again in the future".<br /><br />Ann wrote back:<br /><br />"Anyone that can sit there and keep up a conversation while they eat around the worm in a apple certainly doesn't need any advice from Ann Landers". <br /><br /><br />Ed.

 

[BillP]

Re: To self bail or not?

I think the boat is too small for a self bailing footwell. It's likely too weight sensitive (people aft while fishing) to keep the drains above water. You could launch and measure waterlines with added weight aft to find out. Putting the fuel under the forward deck is what some small 14'-16' flats boat mfgs do to lessen stern weight. <br /><br />For what it's worth, not all boat mfgs have the floor sitting on hull stringers, some are just suspended with their own structure. The early Mako outboards were done this way. They had ply stringers on the hull and ply stiffeners under the deck...with foam in between.

 

[oneoldude]

Re: To self bail or not?

Originally posted by BillP:<br /> I think the boat is too small for a self bailing footwell. It's likely too weight sensitive (people aft while fishing) to keep the drains above water. You could launch and measure waterlines with added weight aft to find out. Putting the fuel under the forward deck is what some small 14'-16' flats boat mfgs do to lessen stern weight.

Billp,<br /><br />Thanks for the observations. You are right, the cantilever is probably too small for the boat to be stable fore-aft. Come to think of it, all the wet self-bailers I have been in were small boats. That suggests I should put my transom-mount trolling motor and battery up front along with the gas tank to stabilize the boat better. Might be tougher to get on plane tho.<br /><br />BTW, should the bulb be near the tank or the motor?

 

[trollhole]

Re: To self bail or not?

Looks like a fun job. Here are a couple of images of mine. It's 1 ft longer and doesn't have any problems with stability. It's pretty flat on the bottom. Mine is self bailing and with the amount of water I have had in my boat at times they have saved me from sinking a few times. It has a bilge in the interior but it would take a big bilge pump to pump the amount of water those scuppers do at speed.<br /><br />

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[oneoldude]

Re: To self bail or not?

trollhole,<br /><br />Thanks for the info. <br /><br />Also, its nice to see a family having a good time.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: To self bail or not?

If I could have projected what my waterline would have been, I would have gone with self bailing. My current floor is just a bit below waterline, it would have been very easy for me to go self-bail. Thats okay, bilge pump does the job too, although I never get water in there anyway...

 

[thehermit]

Re: To self bail or not?

Its the only way to go if you can work it in to your re-design. I have done a couple and always epoxy in a pvc drain plug (threaded cleanout) as a kind of thru hull. You can simply screw in the plug to close it down. Mako boats use copper and boat plugs. This is good if eveyone is in back fishing instead of constantly sucking a little water you can temp plug up scuppers.<br />TH<br /> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/thehermitoncc/detail?.dir=753e&.dnm=2ce7.jpg&.src=ph