Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

[N2Motors]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

Guys, Thanks for all the feedback. I'm going to tear down the valve body again this weekend and take a look. Frustrating as I was really hoping I had it fixed... I do have some theories I want to run by you:

1) I think the fill screw/bolt to the reservoir is stripped and may not be 100% air tight. Could this cause an issue air getting into the system and causing it to leak down. I'm thinking not, but I figured I would ask.

2) I'm wondering if my o-rings are of the wrong size. I first used #11 and then #8 as this is what seemed right based on what I took off, but when I screwed in the plugs (photos from y January 15th post), it felt a bit tight and after tightening down, I immediately unscrewed one side only to find the #8 shredded. I exchanged the #8s for #7s and this seemed to screw in OK without shredding, but perhaps it is too loose. I also think the #11s are bigger than what I took off, so perhaps I'm haven't screwed in the plugs far enough and therefore it is not as tight internally as it used to be...

3) Also, a point of clarification, does the center plug (the little one with two points on both ends and the o-ring right in the middle need to be oriented any particular way. I see each half (either side of the o-ring is slightly different/offset. When I put this back into the body, I simply tried to put it at the midpoint, but did not try and orient the groves in one way or another.

I'll keep you posted with photos once i tear down this weekend.

Thanks!

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

1) I think the fill screw/bolt to the reservoir is stripped and may not be 100% air tight. Could this cause an issue air getting into the system and causing it to leak down. I'm thinking not, but I figured I would ask. I don't think it matters. I've operated mine on the trailer in the back yard with the plug out and it worked just fine. I think it's there to just keep water out and oil inside. Not 100% sure about that though.

2) I'm wondering if my o-rings are of the wrong size. I first used #11 and then #8 as this is what seemed right based on what I took off, but when I screwed in the plugs (photos from y January 15th post), it felt a bit tight and after tightening down, I immediately unscrewed one side only to find the #8 shredded. I exchanged the #8s for #7s and this seemed to screw in OK without shredding, but perhaps it is too loose. I also think the #11s are bigger than what I took off, so perhaps I'm haven't screwed in the plugs far enough and therefore it is not as tight internally as it used to be...Correct size "O" rings are necessary for it to work properly. I wish I knew the size but I just kind of eyeballed it and did exactly what you are doing. Mine been working fine for the last 5 years.

3) Also, a point of clarification, does the center plug (the little one with two points on both ends and the o-ring right in the middle need to be oriented any particular way. I see each half (either side of the o-ring is slightly different/offset. When I put this back into the body, I simply tried to put it at the midpoint, but did not try and orient the groves in one way or another.When I had mine apart, I tried it both ways. Made no difference on how it operated. Just make sure it moves smoothly back and forth. That little shuttle valve gets pushed back and forth, depending on whether you're tilting the motor up or down. Make sure it's well coated with oil before you install it. Make sure the tiny little "O" rings on the end of the plunger inside the valve assy. are seated down on the nipple and not crooked or something like that.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

The plug or filler cap is there just to keep water out.
Salt or fresh water?? Fresh isin't as bad as salt.
You might need a new housing with good threads.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

1) it is critical to prevent splashing water from getting into reservoir. the plug should only be tightened enough that it doesn't fall out into lake. the oring needs to be healthy so that you get good seal. overtightening to compensate for bad oring will just break your reservoir.

2) #11 is the smallest oring in system. who knows what you were doing with smaller sizes? but it wasn't right whatever it was.

3) slider goes either way. make sure to use new oring and apply pre-lube before assembly.

grr ... you advise people not to take the gear plate off and they do it anyway.

 

[DAN M VAGOS]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

I just got my vb back on and filled and it works great and stays up now lol . i whent to sears and got the orings but the sizes in this post are not right I just eyeballed them and the small red orings for the carb rebuild worked great. As for the cap I got a new motor from ebay and it came with a cheap cap but it is air tite.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

Good deal Dan! Glad you were able to get it fixed.

 

[N2Motors]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

Guys,

I just pulled a pat the valve body again and everything looks OK. I know the o-rings I used were different than recommended above, but they were the best fit for fitting over the plugs. In fact, they are so tight that now when I pulled the plugs out on both sides the top 'cap' (the pieces that hold the spring and carb like needle) are stuck in the lower part of the valve body.

At this point, I am still experiencing sag/slow leak and over night, it falls roughly 1/4 the way down. While not scientific, I did try and lower the tilt all the way to the trim piston and leave it there. There appeared to be no movement here when it was resting on the trim piston. Do you think I have a bad tilt piston? I'm struggling to think about what else could be causing my leak.

Is there a way I can fix the piston or at least open that up and see?

Appreciate everyone's thoughts.

Thanks

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

I would take a look at the tilt piston, and while I was at it, the trim piston too..... but that's just me. Both are easier to repair that the valve body. Again, getting the right size "O" rings is important. A couple of things with the tilt piston....be very careful when disconnecting the hydraulic line from it. The band and fitting that attaches it to the tilt piston are easy to break. Also driving the horizontal pin that goes the top shaft can be a challenge. Make sure you leave the nut on flush with the end of the shaft to protect the threads if you are hitting it with a hammer. The top cap of the tilt piston has four dimples in it. You need a spanner wrench that fits two of the four holes to unscrew the cap. I've seen some caps where someone has used a large pair of pliers. You have to be careful with pliers as you may damage the cap. The resident expert (IMHO) for tilt/trim on this forum has a rebuild kit with all the necessary parts to rebuild the trim, tilt and shock cylinders.

Chrysler Force Power Trim Tilt Cylinder Rebuild Kit | eBay

 

[RRitt]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

Guys,

I just pulled a pat the valve body again and everything looks OK. I know the o-rings I used were different than recommended above, but they were the best fit for fitting over the plugs. In fact, they are so tight that now when I pulled the plugs out on both sides the top 'cap' (the pieces that hold the spring and carb like needle) are stuck in the lower part of the valve body.

At this point, I am still experiencing sag/slow leak and over night, it falls roughly 1/4 the way down. While not scientific, I did try and lower the tilt all the way to the trim piston and leave it there. There appeared to be no movement here when it was resting on the trim piston. Do you think I have a bad tilt piston? I'm struggling to think about what else could be causing my leak.

Is there a way I can fix the piston or at least open that up and see?

Appreciate everyone's thoughts.

Thanks

i sell a kit on ebay but I don't think you need it. bleed down is almost always the check valves in valve body.

when bleed down is caused by tilt cylinder it is very rapid. people say things like "falls like a rock" "it's all the way down before i can get out of boat". etc etc

as regards your oring sizes - 011, 012, and 013 is most common. if you have the type with allen keyed plugs then it is 011, 012, and 015. On allen key plugs use hardness 90 on the outer oring and abvoid over-torqueing.

and finally ... never take the gearplate off. just don't do it. that's where people get into trouble. do the lower half and hope for the best.

 

[N2Motors]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

Guys,

Thanks for the guidance on taking apart the trim piston and the further thoughts on my problem.

I ended up taking apart the trim piston as after the second tear down of my valve body looked all to specs (except for the plug caps that are now stuck in bottom part of body).

The trim piston was surprising simply to take apart and I'm happy to did end up tackling this as the main o-ring inside seems to have a small nick in it (see photos - sorry not the best). I suspect this is big enough to call a relatively slow leak vs the "fall like a rock" scenario described above. I'll try and track down the right o-ring and let everyone know how it went.

Thanks!

 

[smax]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

Just currious, do I need 1 each of the tecumseh and briggs and stratton kits or 2 of either? Does lowes or home depot carry these? Does anyone have the dimensions of the gaskets you need from these kits?

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

N2Motors, look down inside if the cylinder that the "O" ring came out of....look closely for any signs of a spot where there might be some corrosion on the inside of the cylinder. That little nick may be the result of a bad spot on the inside of the cylinder. If you see anything, take some 600 or 800 grit emery cloth and smooth out the bad spot. Maybe a brake cylinder hone pr something similar would work. Be sure to flush the cylinder out before you put it back together. Nothing like some emery grit inside your cylinder to mess things up.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

Guys,

Thanks for the guidance on taking apart the trim piston and the further thoughts on my problem.

I ended up taking apart the trim piston as after the second tear down of my valve body looked all to specs (except for the plug caps that are now stuck in bottom part of body).

The trim piston was surprising simply to take apart and I'm happy to did end up tackling this as the main o-ring inside seems to have a small nick in it (see photos - sorry not the best). I suspect this is big enough to call a relatively slow leak vs the "fall like a rock" scenario described above. I'll try and track down the right o-ring and let everyone know how it went.

Thanks!

i list the piston ring as ASA standard size #220 hardness 70 and the two sleeve seals as #133 hardness 70.
you should do the other cylinders. that type of damage is usually the result of improper fluid and/or salt water intrusion.
best to hit ebay for the kit. top seals - aka wipers - are difficult to find. my records don't show size of four trim bolts. they should be replaced but you will probably be fine reusing on a 50HP. Inspect carefully for any stretching. SS318 is fine.

Just currious, do I need 1 each of the tecumseh and briggs and stratton kits or 2 of either? Does lowes or home depot carry these? Does anyone have the dimensions of the gaskets you need from these kits?

you need two of the carb kits, 1@! #111, 2@ #112, 2@ #113. use a dremel to carefully clean the ends of channel. You need to remove paint, polish the surfaces, and clean out the clip groove. do not polish more than 1/4" depth. clean with compressed air and lint-free rags.

 

[N2Motors]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

All,

I'm circling back to report frustrating news. I cannot seem to get this to work. I have tried various size o-rings with a cross section (CS) of 1/8. The grove in the 'trim piston ram' (not sure correct term) definitely appears to be suited for a 1/8 CS oring, but every time I try and put one on, I am unable to slip the ram back into the cylinder. I've tried to lube it in, tap it in, spin it in, and no matter what I end up damaging the oring. As the photo captures, I've tried no less than the 4. I think I'm my 6th oring and I still cannot get it to work.

I know RRitt suggested #220 (1 5/8 Outside Diameter and 1 3/8 Inside Diameter). I tried that and I've tried various sizes going smaller and down to a 1" diameter in the hopes of being able to stretch the CS a bit thinner and hopefully slip it into the cylinder.

This didn't work, so I finally did try to step down to an oring with a 3/32 CS. I was able to slide that in, but of course after re-assembly the trim failed within a matter of hours and the motor was again dropping fairly quickly. I know I was perhaps a bit optimistic in trying a smaller size, but I was desperate...

What also puzzles me is that the oring I took off, seems to be stuck in-between a 1/8 CS size and a 3/32 size. This has me baffled (perhaps it was a 1/8 CS that was stretched?). I tried to highlight this in second photo. The one in the lower right is a 1/8 CS while the one in the middle right is the original one I took out. It is somehow smaller than a 1/8 CS. The one on the upper right is the 3/32 size that fit, but failed soon after (notice the notch on upper side). The one in the lower left is a smaller 1/8 CS that I tried to fit into the cylinder, but you can see the huge gouge I took out of it upon trying to fit it into the cylinder.

I almost took a photo of the inside of the cylinder based on pnwboat's feedback, but it really is smooth as silk so I'm really struggling to believe an imperfection here is causing the orings to fail and create the dreaded notch....

Thoughts? Appreciate everyone's thoughts!

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

There is a possibility that the O ring that was in there that you took out was not the original. If the inner surface of the cylinder is smooth, then it should not be an issue. If the O ring is being damaged when you install it, then I would assume that it is not the correct size. When I did mine, I took the inner cylinder out, (yes it comes out) the piston and the old torn up O ring to a hydraulic cylinder repair shop. They have a huge selection of O rings and they matched it up with some good quality O rings by trial and error and it has been fine for the past 5 or 6 years now. Cost less than $5. I dunno....maybe the O rings you're getting are not good quality, inferior material, out of specs, or just the wrong size?

 

[N2Motors]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

pnwboat. Any guidance on how to get the inner cylinder out? It looks like one solid piece and I don't want to damage mine while trying to get it out. I think if I can do this, I can probably make the o-ring size RRitt suggested work. The damage is occurring when I try and push it past the threads at the end of the cylinder. If I can pull the sleeve out, I can likely massage the o-ring into the inner sleeve and then slide both the piston ram and inner sleeve back into the outer cylinder at once.

I guess I'll also be searching for a hydraulic cylinder repair shop. I'm not near a huge boating community so I'm not having much luck googling for hydraulic repair shop...

 

[RRitt]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

everybody needs either John Deere tractors, electric bucket trucks, or road graders. Somewhere there will be a hydraulic shop for fixing them. Try going to the counter and asking for the AS568A standardized sizes i gave you. I wouldn't even bother trying to make ace hardware orings work. Orings need to compress 10-20% to make their seal. Hardness 70 compresses better and is the default material. However, sometimes you have a situation where the oring is being used as a compression gasket or needs to absorb pressure spikes that might split BN70. In these situations you use BN90.

If you try to force the wrong oring into the wrong application then don't be surprised if it doesn't work or doesn't last. Trim repair is no place for mechanics who cut corners.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: Tilt / Trim Force 50hp - Slow Leak

I'm not sure we're talking about the same cylinder here. The trim cylinder has the blunt shaft with the rounded end coming out of it and has a cover that is held on with 4 bolts. The tilt cylinder looks more like a shock absorber and has the end cap that screws on/off. The tilt cylinder does not have a removable sleeve. If that's what you're working on, disregard my comment about removing the inner sleeve. It doesn't have one.

Anyways, I think you are faced with a case of just getting the correct size O ring. There shouldn't be excessive resistance in getting the piston with the correct O ring back into the cylinder. If there is enough resistance where you have to force it and end up damaging it, then it's not the right one. I strongly suspect that the O ring that you took out is not the original. Don't use it as a guide for the replacement. RRitt has some good suggestions.