tackle addiction??? you got it?

[fishrdan]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

IF the rods had the same action I would tend to agree, but I don't see that being a trend. I'm not saying that a long rod is going to be easier to land a fish on than a short rod, but a 8' rod being 25% more difficult than a 6' rod?

If that were the case, a surf rod would be 75-100% tougher on the fisherman, double the effort to land a fish, but I don't see it. I've had several people tell me I was going to get my asre handed to me fishing a surf rod, but I didn't see that it was more difficult. The fore grip is much higher on the rod, giving the fisherman the same leverage on the longer rod, compared to a short rod. Heck, I can cast the big lures we use out here all day long with a surf rod, with a 6-7' rod a person is whipped in an hour or two.

Same goes for a 6' rod compared to an 8' rod, the fore grip is higher on the rod, evening out the leverage between a long and short rod. Throw in the long rod's slower action and the rods are going to fish about the same.

 

[dingbat]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

If that were the case, a surf rod would be 75-100% tougher on the fisherman, double the effort to land a fish, but I don't see it. .

You can make silly arguments all you want but you cannot change the physics. Both principals (third order lever and angle of pull) involved are easily quantified and calculated to give you an absolute answer to the question which is yes. A longer, more flexible rod requires considerably more pressure at the fulcrum point to exert the same amount of pressure at the tip as is does a shorter, stiffer rod.

I own a custom rod shop and I am a mechanical engineer on top of it. One would think that I would know something about the mechanics of the componets I use to build the rods.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

Silly argument, I think not. Is a surf rod all that much harder to land a fish on, compared to a short fast action rod? Not in my experience.

On a 3rd class lever, as the load moves closer to the fulcrum (rod bending to shorten effective length), the effort is reduced. And, as the effort point is moved closer to the load (fore grip further up blank), the effort is reduced. These 2 things make a slow action long fishing rod just as easy to land a fish as a short fast action rod, the effort "can be" the same. Even if the fulcrum point might have higher pressure, it's a moot point to me as that load is being applied to the lower body (hip, leg, rod belt) and not the upper body that can wear a person down. Though, I don't think the fulcrum point is going to have significantly more pressure since the effort point has been moved closer to the load..........

Heck, on a couple of my slow action rods, the tip section is barely carrying any of the load and pointing straight at the fish, the load is being carried in the middle of the rod, not at the tip as a fast action rod would.

[Disclaimer, I'm not a rod blank manufacturer or mechanical engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night ]

 

[sschefer]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

[Disclaimer, I'm not a rod blank manufacturer or mechanical engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night ]

I thought that was you snaggin all the breakfast snacks this morning. Talk about fulcrum, I expected your arm to break under the weight of that plate.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

I thought that was you snaggin all the breakfast snacks this morning. Talk about fulcrum, I expected your arm to break under the weight of that plate.

Whoops, busted! You did notice I passed on the powdered eggs, rubber sausage and wall paper paste gravy.

 

[dingbat]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

And, as the effort point is moved closer to the load (fore grip further up blank), the effort is reduced

Good argument except the distance from the axis to the fulcrum is limited to right around 36? by the human anatomy. A gorilla might get away with a bit more

On a 3rd class lever, as the load moves closer to the fulcrum (rod bending to shorten effective length), the effort is reduced.

Your right except the rod bending introduces another force, angle of pull. A 30-degree bend in your rod is at ? load, at 45-degree bend puts you at 70% load and at 90-degree bend puts you at 100% load. How much bend did you say was in the tip of that rod?

Bottom line, the longer rod put you at a greater disadvantage, the bending of the rod only make the problem worst

Here?s the math

The disadvantage of a third order lever is calculated using the ratio of the distance from the Axis to Fulcrum (AF) and the distance from Fulcrum to the Load (FL)

69? stand-up
AF = 34?
FL = 35?
AF/FL= 0.97:1

96? rod
AF = 36?
FL = 55??
AF/FL = 0.65:1

6.5 /.97 = 33% disadvantage to the 96? rod.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

Your right except the rod bending introduces another force, angle of pull. A 30-degree bend in your rod is at ? load, at 45-degree bend puts you at 70% load and at 90-degree bend puts you at 100% load. How much bend did you say was in the tip of that rod?

Bottom line, the longer rod put you at a greater disadvantage, the bending of the rod only make the problem worst

I understand how angle of pull relates to the position a person is holding a fishing rod (90* horizontal = highest load, anything +- off that axis reduces load) I don't see how that relates to how much a fishing rod bends. Both a short and long rod can be held at the same angle and exert the same load,,, if the long rod is bent to the same effective length as the short rod. One has to consider how the rod blank was built...

Take live bait rods (I have a 7'9" Fenwick PS791C and a 7' PS870C, Calstar and Seeker make similar live bait rods, Fenwick ripped off their designs), where the tip is designed to be very slow and not rip the bait off the line during casting. It takes very little pressure (1#) to bend the first 2-3' of the rod and have the tip 90* (correction, it's 45*) off axis. The rod essentially shortened itself to make fighting the fish easier. This type of rod takes very little pressure to load the tip, like the fast action rod in the pic below, then when fighting the fish it continues to load like the medium action rod.

(I was referring to that Fenwick 791 in my first post that started this whole debacle.)

It's just not live bait rods as I also have an 8' downrigger rod that is a very slow action rod, and I'm sure there are other rods that I haven't seen that exhibit similar traits.

While not specifically talking about long rods, this guy I'm going to quote seems to think a slow action rod makes fighting a fish easier by reducing it's effective length. I'm under the perception he knows a thing or two about fishing.

If a rod is limber and bends a lot, it?s EFFECTIVE LENGTH is shortened. The best rods for fighting fish standing up all have limber tips which stiffen dramatically closer to the fore grip. This lessens the force against the angler and still allows him to apply decent pressure against the fish.
http://www.guyharveymagazine.com/topics/rods/curved-butts-or-bent-butts

He also goes on to say a short rod is good, but if you can use a long rod that essentially turns into a short rod while fighting the fish, I say go ahead if you need that long rod for things like casting live bait. I do agree with you that if everything is equal besides the rod length, the long rod will be tougher to land a fish, but everything is not always equal.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

Here’s the math

69” stand-up
AF = 34”
FL = 35”
AF/FL= 0.97:1

96” rod
AF = 36”
FL = 55””
AF/FL = 0.65:1

6.5 /.97 = 33% disadvantage to the 96” rod.

Let's run those calculations with the rods I use most often.

78” rod (6'6")
AF = 24”
FL = 54”
AF/FL= 0.44:1

120” surf rod
AF = 36”
FL = 84
AF/FL = 0.43:1

120” (take off 1' for surf rod bending easier, 108" effective length)
AF = 36”
FL = 72
AF/FL = 0.50:1

Unless I did the math wrong, the surf rod and it's longer butt section is equal to or easier to land a fish on than the short rod with it's short but section.

 

[sschefer]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

Anybody want to bring parabolics into this feud? I've got a 10' float rod now and a 7' downrigger rod that are both parbolics. All the fulcrum stuff goes out the window and noooo I wouldn't want to go after anything over 20lbs with either of them. Sure do tire a fish out nice though.

 

[MRS]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

I think everybody has there favorite rod that they use for what weight fish they are targeting and nobody will change there mind.
But is fun when you read this stuff. When the bonita where in Redondo Harbour we would fish in a 12ft. tinney with a trolling motor and ul rod and reels. Took 15 to 20 min.s to land if the seals did not get them right rod and reel combo no but what a blast. I burned up a few reels there but well worth it.

 

[sschefer]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

I think everybody has there favorite rod that they use for what weight fish they are targeting and nobody will change there mind.
But is fun when you read this stuff. When the bonita where in Redondo Harbour we would fish in a 12ft. tinney with a trolling motor and ul rod and reels. Took 15 to 20 min.s to land if the seals did not get them right rod and reel combo no but what a blast. I burned up a few reels there but well worth it.

A couple of buddies and I did the same thing off the dock at Long Beach... I was on the New Jersey at the time. We did a security dive earlier in the day an saw them and couldn't wait to get a line in the water. We grabbed whatever special services had in the locker and used it.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

Anybody want to bring parabolics into this feud?

Ummm, NO!!

Unless you want to pick up where I left off :facepalm:

 

[catfishcarl99]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

this is like one of them threads about duck hunting thats turned into a debate over the best cupcake.:facepalm:

honestly i never put this much though into it. i just cast it and fight em in. guess if i was offshore fishing ide think about it a bit harder.

 

[dingbat]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

Hard to discuss fine art with a blind man.

You want an AF/FL ratio to be as close to 1 as possible so 1 unit at the butt = 1 unit at the tip.

My stand-up = 1 unit = 0.97 at top.
Your surf rod = 1 units = 0.50 at top. Almost 1/2 as efficient at transferring effort to the tip as the stand -up rod

Bent butts are for fighting from a chair. With the butt in the holder, the rod tip sticks straight out the back of the boat. An attack angle of maybe 20-25 degrees

I?m going to say this one more time. The bend in your rod (angle of pull) is costing you big time in the rods load capacity.

With the rod in its straight, unflexed state, which we?ll call 0 degrees, the tip has 0 load on it. As the tip of the rod begins to bend, the effort required to tranfer the effort from the butt to the tip increases. By the time the tip is bent 30 degrees off plane, you?re looking at 33% more load. At 45 degrees the rod tip has reached 70% more load. By the time the tip reaches 90 degrees you?re looking at 100%

Example: We?re both fighting a #100 fish. I?m fighting a fast action stand-up and you?re fishing a slow action surf rod. I fight my fish with my rod tip bent 30 degrees off plane. Your rod tip is bent 45 degrees off plane. Your extending almost 40% more effort because of the bend in your rod.

 

[MRS]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

this is like one of them threads about duck hunting thats turned into a debate over the best cupcake.:facepalm:

honestly i never put this much though into it. i just cast it and fight em in. guess if i was offshore fishing ide think about it a bit harder.

As long as they are chocolate cupcakes right?

 

[fishrdan]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

Nope, I'm not giving up........

You want an AF/FL ratio to be as close to 1 as possible so 1 unit at the butt = 1 unit at the tip.

My stand-up = 1 unit = 0.97 at top.
Your surf rod = 1 units = 0.50 at top. Almost 1/2 as efficient at transferring effort to the tip as the stand -up rod

Maybe for short 5 1/2 -6' standup rods, but how many styles of rods have an AF/FL of 1:1? The majority of fishing rods have something over double that .40:1, .50:1. I checked one of my bass rods and it was .23:1 Only guys chasing 200-1000# fish would want or need a rod with an AF/FL of 1:1, top of the fore grip being middle of the rod.

I’m going to say this one more time. The bend in your rod (angle of pull) is costing you big time in the rods load capacity. At 45 degrees the rod tip has reached 70% more load.

Well, I'm going to say it one more time too, that's not right,,, for all rods. I checked the Fenwick PS791 7'9 rod and with a 16oz water bottle hanging off the line (1#), the rod tip was at 45*. The rod is barely loaded, but the tip is at 45*. When I hung a 2.5# weight on it, the tip was almost at 90*. I do agree that when a rod is bent to 90*, it's 100% loaded up and bottomed out. But,,, all rods do not deflect at the same rate and percentages of being loaded.

Example: We’re both fighting a #100 fish. I’m fighting a fast action stand-up and you’re fishing a slow action surf rod. I fight my fish with my rod tip bent 30 degrees off plane. Your rod tip is bent 45 degrees off plane. Your extending almost 40% more effort because of the bend in your rod.

Clearly you would have a huge advantage with that short rod, with the foregrip half way up the rod, but that's not the norm. Normally rods have the foregrip 1/3 up the blank, or less. For chits and grins I hauled out a UPS scale, 2.5# weight, and a hoard of rods to see how they would match up in pressure on the fisherman. The rod butt was hooked on a rope 1" from the end, fore grip placed on scale where I would normally grip the rod, then the 2.5# weight reeled up to load the rod. Rod deflection was almost straight on some rods, almost 90* on others, and everything in between. The first number is the force required to lift the rod by the fisherman, force applied to scale (minus the rod/reel weight). Here we go..................

7.75# Fenwick PS791 7'9" (This is the one that started the trainwreck)
7.75# Fenwick 670C 6'6"
7.50# Seeker 6470 7'
8.00# Calstar 665L 6'6"
8.25# Penn 6661 6'6"
7.25# Seeker 6455H 6'6"

8.25# Penn PGS1540C10 10'
8.00# Penn 9910 10'
9.50# Penn 6911 11'3"

4.25# Seeker 6455XXH 5'6"
4.50# Seeker 665XH 5'6"

And the piece de resistance..............

14.5# Abu 701MH bass rod 7'

As one would expect the short standup rods were the clear winner. But surprisingly, all the other rods were pretty darn close, even the surf rods were hanging in there. The bass rig's reel drag was cranked down as tight as it would go to lift the weight off the concrete, probably not supposed to be deadlifting 2.5# of weight with a bass rod...

(I wasn't using a digital scale so some of the weights might be off a touch, accuracy guaranteed + - 1/2# :facepalm

Oh yeah... If you add in the weight of the rod/reel ALL of them were between 9 to 11#, the weight of the rigs evened out the total weight the fisherman would have to lift. Standup rigs about 5#, others 2 to 3#, lightest was the bass rig at 1#.

 

[sschefer]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

this is like one of them threads about duck hunting thats turned into a debate over the best cupcake.:facepalm:

honestly i never put this much though into it. i just cast it and fight em in. guess if i was offshore fishing ide think about it a bit harder.

CC - Yep, If my best setup was a broom stick and a ball of kite string, I'd learn to use it and probably claim it was the best thing since sliced bread. There are a lot of merits to buying the correct rod for what your doing with it. If you're a guide and you need your clients to catch fish, you're going to get really picky about what you put in their hands. At that point it may make a difference but if it doesn't from an equipment perspective it would be difficult to argue fault.

 

[catfishcarl99]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

well this blind man caught 115 cats this season. think my sight is fine. just got done filleting a few more tonigth.

guide. na. i often catch 5 to one against every man i take. and i like it that way. lol. most times i boat 7-15 while my buddies 1-3. i share the info. its up to them to soak it up. i catfish 99% of the time. and am good at what i do.

i love the chocloate ones. cupcakes that is.

 

[catfishcarl99]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

i just thought is would be cool to see and share pics of or rods from us that love to collect and use different gear. no one shared a single pic. but now have found the time to rip the OP. thanks.

thing is i have never did any on those tests and what not on my uglysticks. but they catch fish every time. never broke one.

 

[JEBar]

Re: tackle addiction??? you got it?

I think everybody has there favorite rod that they use for what weight fish they are targeting and nobody will change there mind.

yep .... in fact, I'm really glad understanding all of the math, physics and such isn't required for me to pick up a rod I like and have fun fishing ..:redface:.. I have 3 rods I use for fresh water fishing, one salt water boat rod, one fly rod, two surf casting rods, and a few others that are in the back of a closet .... that isn't to say that if I should run into circumstances that a rig I have isn't sufficient, that I won't buy another one because I'd do so in a heart beat .... I have no problem with folks who have an arsenal of rod/reel combos and hope they enjoy using them as much as I enjoy using the few that I have ....

Jim