Surge Brakes Leaking

[RL Gman]

My first question posted on the iBoats forums. I have spent much time on these forums, to which I must thank all of the experts for their comments. However, it is time to ask a question that I haven't seen answered (if it has, just point me to the thread!).

Specs: I just bought a 2005 Monterey 214 FS ~ 4500-4700 lbs with a 2005 tandem Road King trailer ~ 1000 lbs with surge disk brakes. Pretty solid load overall. The entire rig looks brand new, but I am having a leak from the actuator.

Commentary: I am by no means new to boating or trailering, however I am very new to trailering with breaks (most of my previous boats trailer/cargo's have been light. Eg < 3000 lbs.

When I bought the boat with the trailer, I pulled it off the lot and realized there was a lot of "clunking". After getting it home and reading the trailer manual, realized the brake fluid was low. Turns out, there was no (read "completely empty") fluid in the reservoir. I filled the reservoir and actuated the break mechanism for a while to ensure fluid was reaching the breaks and to ensure no leaks. I checked all of the lines and the breaks themselves with no visible leaks.

I took the boat out for the first test drive (this past weekend) and as I was towing, the jerking and clunking was gone. Basically, the breaks actually felt like they were doing something. Here is where the issue started.

When I backed it to the ramp, and the boat was sitting on the slope (pulling away from the tow vehicle) as I was preparing to launch, I noticed the DOT 3 fluid was dripping very fast from the actuator. Basically it leaked completely empty in the 15 minutes the boat was on the ramp (or being backed to the ramp) and gravity was pulling away from the tow vehicle.

Now, since (I believe) it wasn't leaking when I was pulling it (force away from the actuator, same "away" force as sitting on a slope of the boat ramp) and it wasn't leaking for a week that it sat before I pulled it I think it has something to do with the reverse solenoid. Perhaps when it bypasses the breaks, something (not working) allows it to leak? At least this is my current thought.

Before I started looking at replacing any pieces of the actuator and digging too deep (as I know this can get pricey) I wanted to know if anyone else has had the issue/resolved an issue like this. Perhaps the commentary above sends up flags for someone that has a lot of experience in surge breaks. Any thoughts advice greatly appreciated!

PS. Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to be sure (read "hopefully be sure") I didn't leave anything out that could help diagnose the problem.

v/r Gman.

 

[180shabah]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

Sorry to hear your having trouble with the "new" boat.

First check into something called a guarantee of marketability(sp?). If this was from a private seller, it wouldn't matter, but since you bought the trailer from a dealer it could be different. In VA, vehicles must meet DOT regulations when sold to a consumer, for trailers that means function lights and brakes(if present/required). WV may be different, but it is worth looking into, as the dealer may be responsible for the repair/cost.

Now, if you have to DIY, first you will have to identify the location of the leak. There are only a couple of "holes" in any actuator, but with age (and being in salt country) it may have grown a new one. Best thing to do now, is top it back off and get the tongue up as high as you can get it, then look for the leak. Take a few pics if you can.

Is your actuator bolted or welded on? If bolted on, you may be ahead to just replace it and not worry about dealer responsibility.

BTW - welcome aboard.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

Replace the master cylinder and then properly bleed your brakes.

Post a picture of your actuator and we can tell you what brand you have.

 

[RL Gman]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

I appreciate the "Welcome Aboard" sentiment!

And FYI, the boat was bought on consignment, and if the deal wasn't so good and I would have thought that I would have further interactions with the dealer, I would have never bought from them (didn't like the interactions or treatment at all, but I could tell it was going to be a good deal), so I am sure this will be a DIY project.

I'll refill the reservoir, and will actuate the brakes again to try to find the location of the leak, I'll also post the pictures when I get home from work.

Sounds like initial thoughts are focusing on the master cylinder. That diagnosis was one I shared. I'll post the pictures and further the troubleshooting a bit before I procure a new master cylinder.

I also have the owner's manual for the actuator at home, so I'll be able to post the brand later as well.

All comments welcome, thank you already for the quick responses!

v/r Gman.

 

[CatTwentyTwo]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

If you have the bypass type lockout solenoid, you should see a short piece of hose from the solenoid back to the master cylinder. If the hose is cracked, broken, or missing, it can leak from there when you are in reverse. Like Bruce said, once you get the leak fixed, you will need to properly bleed the brakes. Just adding fluid and actuating the brake coupler will not get the air out of the lines and calipers. Good luck, it will be interesting to see what you find.

 

[RL Gman]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

If you have the bypass type lockout solenoid, you should see a short piece of hose from the solenoid back to the master cylinder. If the hose is cracked, broken, or missing, it can leak from there when you are in reverse.

I'm fairly certain have this type of bypass lockout solenoid! And so far my primary guess (now that you have said this) would be that the hose is cracked or broken. Do I have to take the actuator apart to get to the solenoid/hose?

I'm attaching the pictures this morning. I just need to figure out how to do it first, I thought I would be able to just upload from a folder, but it appears I need to upload them to a website first and then use the hyperlink to show...

Also, I'll do some searching on proper bleeding techniques, but my guess is that basically disconnect from brakes, and pump the master cylinder until fluid is flowing?

v/r Gman.

 

[RL Gman]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

The pictures I promised...looks like I just clicked on the wrong reply button for uploading.

PS. Dont really think Pic 3 is very important. I just took it because the fluid was falling from there.

 

[bruce40]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

Gman,

My trailer was leaking this spring when i got it out of storage, only when i put it in reverse. The npt fitting, where the hose connects to the solenoid, was a half turn loose.

Check out tiedown.com for bleeding info

 

[180shabah]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

...also, that hose looks like it has seen better days.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

If you do find that the master cylinder is the culprit, here is where you can buy a replacement.

http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=9230

 

[RL Gman]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

Thank you for all the info, and especially the link Bruce.

I'll check the connection first, and if not, I'll replace the master cylinder. 90 bucks is much better than the entire coupler/actuator assembly!

Last question, if I find a simple "loose" connection, do you guys still think I should take the coupler off and check over the whole thing? (obviously I would need to if its the master cylinder) I just didn't know if I should take it off and ensure everything is clean/no rust, maybe grease some components etc? Basically, any regular maintenance I should do since I'll be working on it anyway.

I can't guarantee anyone has done any maintenance since it was new, and again, a nube when it comes to brakes on trailers.

v/r Gman.

 

[RL Gman]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

Bit of a late update, I know...

Here's where I'm at. I took the actuator off, and didnt really know what I was looking at, nor did I like what I saw. As 180 said, the break lines are in terrible shape as well. So I'm thinking of completely re-outfitting my brake system. This includes all new break lines, and new actuator.

Plus, I've been looking around and searching the threads some more and see that people seem to think that tie down products are cheaply built. Is this true?

If so, I'm thinking about buying a more quality break set up. If I do this, will I need to replace the break cylinders at each tire? Will I need to change the discs, or the pads?

All of the equipment at the axle looks good.

To make this question simple, I'm basically asking: Can I only replacethe lines and actuator with a more quality product and have it link up to the current axles set up?

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

To make this question simple, I'm basically asking: Can I only replacethe lines and actuator with a more quality product and have it link up to the current axles set up?

Sure you can.

 

[RL Gman]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

Sure you can.

Awesome, I'll do that.

I know it's opinion, but anyone cosider a certain brand the best for surge disck brake actuators?

 

[dockwrecker]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

The 4 bolt pattern that appears to secure your actuator secures it through the top plate of the coupler, no? Am I seeing that correctly? If I am what you have for a master is probably a D60 Dico. What you also don't have presently is a backup solenoid, you have a cut off solenoid per your pictures. This explains when you put it in reverse and it started puking through the back piston from pressure.
Call Champion and they'll be able to confirm whether or not a D60 crosses over to the Tie Down coupler. Get a backup solenoid with return tube, brake line kit and spend the extra $50 bucks over new drum stuff to go Kodiaks.
www.championtrailer.com

 

[RL Gman]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

The 4 bolt pattern that appears to secure your actuator secures it through the top plate of the coupler, no? Am I seeing that correctly? If I am what you have for a master is probably a D60 Dico. What you also don't have presently is a backup solenoid, you have a cut off solenoid per your pictures. This explains when you put it in reverse and it started puking through the back piston from pressure.
Call Champion and they'll be able to confirm whether or not a D60 crosses over to the Tie Down coupler. Get a backup solenoid with return tube, brake line kit and spend the extra $50 bucks over new drum stuff to go Kodiaks.
www.championtrailer.com

Awesome info, thank you!!

And what do you mean by

and spend the extra $50 bucks over new drum stuff to go Kodiaks.

I currently have disc brakes, are you telling me to get drum brakes, or are you saying replace my current disc breaks with Kodiaks?

 

[180shabah]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

If the hardware at each axle is good, yes you can replace just the coupler and lines. Just make sure you get one of the correct weight "capacity".

 

[RL Gman]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

I'll definitely ensure I'll be good on capacity. I might be super conservative and go up a 500 pounds if it bolts on correctly. I just needed to know that it could "communicate" with the hardware at the axles!

Right now I think it has either 6000# or 6500# rating, and I was considering the 7000# to be safe...I'll ask those questions when I talk to champion.

 

[180shabah]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

Jsust get the model number off of your existing actuator, they'll get you set up.

 

[dockwrecker]

Re: Surge Brakes Leaking

Here's pictures of my D60 setup. Note that the return solenoid pipe is drilled through the top plate of the coupler. The D60 may have an additional plate over the top of the cylinder. Yours appears to seal to the underside of the coupler with a gasket.I drilled a 3/4'' hole in the top of the coupler and threaded the cylinder cover plate to accept the 1/8" barb fitting for the backup solenoid. This needs to be tapped as 1/4NPT for the fitting. You may be able to just tap the coupler if your master seals directly to the underside. When I ordered mine from Champion, they said it would come with this return hole in the disc brake master. It didn't, and where they show the hole in he back of the master woudn't have worked anyway as the fitting won't clear the backup solenoid. Thus I went in thru the top, which also now provides a convenient fitting for pressure bleeding with the garden sprayer setup.
The picture also shows the backup type solenoid (Tie Down labeled) which ships with a blue wire. DO NOT WIRE THIS TO THE BLUE TERMINAL OF A 7 PIN. This wire should be colored purple and go the the center pin of a 7 pin connector.
Hope this helps.