Starter and choke issue

The Force power

The Force power

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NJboatdude said:
I bought the starter on Amazon, so you could have a point there. Although both starters were/are doing the same thing....I can pull apart the old one and see what my options are. I did lube the shafts on both starters with 3 in 1 oil as well and worked it through the system.

Are you saying cables inside the starter being backwards? Because I'd read elsewhere on here that putting the battery cables on backwards and the like would not result in this necessarily. I'm happy to check the innards of the old starter to see what they look like.

Thanks to all for the feedback; I would take this to a mechanic honestly but I can't find one who will actually work on it. Everyone claims that Force parts are so hard to get but so far I haven't had an issue with it and I'm probably not needing the clutch dog replaced either, merely simple electrical parts most of which I have already replaced.

Also, I replaced the key switch last night and I have to double check the wiring because it was juuuuuust starting to get dark when I finished it, but it had zero impact on the choke or the starter.

Also, would a loose or disconnected ground wire somewhere under the console do this? I can spend some time checking through for that.
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When you energize the choke, do you have full power at the terminal of the solenoid ? if yes, do you get any voltage-reading on the body of the solenoid ? If any significant reading is present, that would mean the solenoid is not properly grounded.
Also check all the ground terminals under the helm & under the Cowl.
Bypass both battery-cable and use booster-cable to verify IF INDEED your battery-cables are good
 
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NJboatdude

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The Force power said:
When you energize the choke, do you have full power at the terminal of the solenoid ? if yes, do you get any voltage-reading on the body of the solenoid ? If any significant reading is present, that would mean the solenoid is not properly grounded.
Also check all the ground terminals under the helm & under the Cowl.
Bypass both battery-cable and use booster-cable to verify IF INDEED your battery-cables are good
Click to expand...
Thank you. Excellent advice and I'm going to run out right now and use the last bit of daylight to check this stuff....
 
jerryjerry05

jerryjerry05

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WELLL????

My first Mercury I switched the cables and couldn't understand why the bendix wouldn't lift :)
 
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NJboatdude

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Well I didn't get the volt meter out there in time, lost to darkness LOL. Couldn't track down my kid who was walking the dog when I first went out there....my arms aren't long enough to engage the choke and also hold the voltmeter LOL.
Anyway in looking at my spaghetti mess under my console I may re-do all the wiring, just ordered some terminal blocks to get rid of the spliced mess everywhere.
 
puffitu

puffitu

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Yup -I re wired everything on mine thus eliminating future guess work-
 
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Poormansboating

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Sound like a plan.

Had to do the same with my bass boat last year. Spent more time chasing wires down than I did just running all new wires.
 
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ryan 98

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Sounds like I high resistance problem somewhere. Especially since multiple systems on the motor are effected and jumping them solves it. Do you know how to do a voltage drop test with a multi meter? Because it's time to learn. Basically you will be reading voltage between two points on the same conductor. Say the positive cable at the battery and where it meets the starter solidoid. When cranking with a load on it you should read nearly no voltage, say less than half a volt. If there were any considerable resistance in that cable or a connection in it, your meter would read some appreciable voltage on it when cranking. The test works the same on the ground side. One side of the meter to the starter case and the other to the negative battery terminal then crank it. Once again any appreciable voltage on the meter means high resistance. This trick will work on any wire in the boat. Just remember you have to have that circuit energized and in its working state when testing. And the beauty of it is you can start big, checking a long run with multiple connections in it, and if it fails the test (showing considerable voltage) then you can narrow down your test area slowly and pinpoint the exact point of resistance.
 
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NJboatdude

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OK here's the verdict on the choke.

When I hook the red to the choke power and ground the black, i get about 6 volts at the choke when I push the key in. When I put the red on the body of the choke and ground the black, I get .3-.4 volts when I push the key in. From what you guys are telling me, and my own electrical knowledge, I believe that means for sure loose ground on the choke. My question is can I run a second ground somehow to alleviate this or must i hunt down the original loose/bad ground?

ETA: I'm looking at my Haynes manual wiring diagram, where/how does the choke solenoid ground to begin with? Does the fact that the choke doesn't work mean that loose ground is actually on the choke or could it be anywhere? I also tested the resistance from the post on the choke to the body and it falls within spec per the manual, so choke is functional.
 
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ryan 98

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NJboatdude said:
OK here's the verdict on the choke.

When I hook the red to the choke power and ground the black, i get about 6 volts at the choke when I push the key in. When I put the red on the body of the choke and ground the black, I get .3-.4 volts when I push the key in. From what you guys are telling me, and my own electrical knowledge, I believe that means for sure loose ground on the choke. My question is can I run a second ground somehow to alleviate this or must i hunt down the original loose/bad ground?

ETA: I'm looking at my Haynes manual wiring diagram, where/how does the choke solenoid ground to begin with? Does the fact that the choke doesn't work mean that loose ground is actually on the choke or could it be anywhere? I also tested the resistance from the post on the choke to the body and it falls within spec per the manual, so choke is functional.
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If I'm understanding correctly and your saying with one probe on the chocke solenoid ground itself and one probe on the negative battery post you get 0.3v? With it energized of course? That sounds about right, there will always be a bit of resistance in a circuit, 0.3 volts in that run sounds healthy. Also as far as the ground side of the entire circuit on an outboard goes. One cable will come from the negative post of the battery and usually bolt directly to the starter. This effectively grounds the starter and all other circuits will usually be grounded in different places off the engine block. So ground cable, starter body, engine block, then all other accesories are grounded off the block. Sounds like you have the ground side down pretty well. Of course a voltage drop test between the starter case and negative terminal will completely rule that out. Next I'd look to do the same tests on the hot side of these circuts. It works in the same way. It's also a useful check of starter solenoids. Put it across both high current terminals of the solenoid then crank, it should show very little voltage if your contacts are working well inside. If you take a minute to really think about how it works, simply measuring how much voltage the unwanted load (high resistance) in any given circuit is eating up. Then you can really apply it to most anything your dealing with. The 6 v across the pins of the solenoid mean the solenoid is only "using" 6 volts out of the 12 or so fed to it from the battery. So we know that .3 v of that are being used by resistance in the ground side, very minimal and normal. But where's the extra 6 v going? Has to be lost somewhere between the positive battery post and the positive side of the solenoid. So repeat those steps on the positive side of the circuit until you pinpoint the extra resistance.

I hope that makes some sense, your definitely on the right path and already narrowed it down quite a bit with the information in the last post. Just had to put it together and interpret it.

Oh, and by the way I'm in no way an outboard mechanic. I'm actually a ford tec. But the principals are the same and I hope this helps a bit.
 
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ryan 98

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Now I'm really thinking on this. If it has the same helm controls as mine there will be a round rubber connector coming out the back of them that powers all your accessories and dash. Unplug that. The boat will still run and work fine without it for testing. My thinking is the power wire for accessories may just be the same one that powers the key and choke switch. That isolates all the extra wiring in the boat from being a potential high resistance issue. Then use your manual and find the circuit that feeds power to the controls and switches and check that one carefully, you can once again voltage drop test any part of it. It really sounds like there is simply not enough power coming back from the control side to energize the starter solenoid and choke fully.
 
jerryjerry05

jerryjerry05

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Choke's grounded through the bracket.
Volt meter: unhook green choke wire from choke body, hook test lead to the green choke wire. Hit the choke/key, what's the voltage?
Should be battery voltage, then when hooked back up, hit key again and read voltage. Post the results??
Not very often(1 in 35+ years), but the choke solenoid can go bad??
IF??? the solenoid body is off 1/2" it won't work right, the bracket has a cutout for the electrical connector, make sure it's in that cutout but not touching.
Then experiment.
Gotta ask,did you clean the solenoid and the slide then lube with a couple drops of oil or WD.
Don't use silicone sprays as they eventually gum up.
 
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NJboatdude

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Hello all. Gonna attempt to post everything and not miss anything.

Choke solenoids getting about 6 volts, not 12.

The ignition post (yellow wire) on the solenoid is getting a little over 10 volts when I hit the key to start.

Everything else I tested (solenoid +, relays, red wire @ terminal block all getting 12.8+ volts.

Is the strategy to try running a parallel yellow wire from the ignition to the solenoid to see if that corrects the problem? Same with the choke wire??
 
dwco5051

dwco5051

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Is that 10v when the key is turned to start and the starter is running or is it just when the key is pushed in to activate the choke only while in the run position? If it is the first then I would suspect the starter is drawing current and a slight drop in voltage would be normal. Don't know what that starter is supposed to draw amp wise but if you have a way to measure the amperage and compare it to what is spec that could answer a lot of questions. Bad starter or an engine being too tight could be two thing to check. Pull the plugs and check the voltage when the starter has a light load. If you have a kill switch pull the lanyard or be sure the plugs are grounded to avoid possible damage to the ignition system.

Edit: SAFETY NOTE If you cannot disable the ignition be certain the plugs are not near the plug holes where a fuel air mixture are being expelled. I am sure many of us have made that mistake at least once.
 
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NJboatdude

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dwco5051 said:
Is that 10v when the key is turned to start and the starter is running or is it just when the key is pushed in to activate the choke only while in the run position? If it is the first then I would suspect the starter is drawing current and a slight drop in voltage would be normal. Don't know what that starter is supposed to draw amp wise but if you have a way to measure the amperage and compare it to what is spec that could answer a lot of questions. Bad starter or an engine being too tight could be two thing to check. Pull the plugs and check the voltage when the starter has a light load. If you have a kill switch pull the lanyard or be sure the plugs are grounded to avoid possible damage to the ignition system.

Edit: SAFETY NOTE If you cannot disable the ignition be certain the plugs are not near the plug holes where a fuel air mixture are being expelled. I am sure many of us have made that mistake at least once.
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10v when I turn and hold in "start" position.
 
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