Slalom Ski Design

[BigBoatinOkie]

I wanted to pick some of you pros brains about slalom ski design, and what are some of the traits that you look for in a slalom ski. I have only just begun slaloming and I'm just looking to educate myself a bit so as I progress, I will know what to look for in skis and/or what adjustments I can make in my current ski to enhance the experience and my skill. That being said, here are some questions.

1. I have one ski that is kinda like a V on the bottom, and one that is just concave. Is it called a tunnel? What is the best shape for the bottom of the ski and why?

2. How important is the shape and size of the fin, and the placement and size of the holes in the fin? Are they called vent holes or what?

3. What is the significance of the curvature of the ski? Rocker is it? And what is good for slalom, a lot or a little curve?

4. Binding placement. I noticed that the bindings on my Big Daddy and some old slalom skis I have are further forward than the bindings on my ski from a combo set.

5. Does width matter?

6. Did I miss anything important?

7. Would any of this even make a hoot to a beginner?

Like I said before, I'm just curious and I like to learn about what makes stuff work. I want to hear your 2 cents. Should make good conversation anyway.

from left: old wooden magnum, old fiberglass obrien, HO combo 68" I think, Connelly Big Daddy

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

Most modern skis use a concave design on the bottom which aids in trancking and holding in a turn. The edes of the ski normally have a 45-degree edge on them as opposed to a straight-90 like the older skis; this helps in holding your edge and transitioning for the turns. The holes in the fins are normally for mounting a small dorsal fin to further aid in tracking and keeping the tail of the ski planted during hard cornering.

The placement of the bindings on the ski is solely due to ski design: this takes into account length, width, and intended skier weight.

To help you out more, it would be beneficial to know your experience level, intented use of the ski, and your height/weight.

 

[skibrain]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

I was going to say that recommending what to look for in a ski is a bit like asking what to look for in tires for your vehicle. Tires are generally sort of black and round and protect your rims. Lots of factors involved by vehicle type and use.

The Connelly Big Daddy is sort of the Chevy Suburban of slalom skis. 3/4 ton. AWD. Adjustments (or a new set of tires) are not going to turn it into a sports car. I think the Connelly was a great choice. In terms of adjustments to it, I don't think that the bindings on the Big Daddy are adjustable for position, nor is there adjustment on the fin. That's fine, use it as is and enjoy. And yes, as you get some miles on it, start looking at what you might want next.

More than listing a bunch of design characteristics and saying that if a ski is a particular brand or has X, Y and Z then it is a great ski, I think it comes down to how lots of factors work together. I'll try to track down some ski reviews in the wide-ride performance category and post some links.

 

[SeanT]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

If the Big Daddy is a suburban, what's the Big Kahuna? One of those half-semi half truck thingies?

 

[BigBoatinOkie]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

Thanks guys. I don't really intend to go making adjustments to my Big Daddy, nor am I in the market for another new ski. Heck, I've only ridden the Big Daddy for two weekends. What I was really wanting is to figure out what the purpose is for each of the different aspects in the disign of a ski. I should've worded my original questions a little better. Like every other product in the world, everybody advertises some kind of feature that makes their product better than the other guys, tires is a good example. What I aim to do is learn how each aspect of the design affects how the ski/tire handles so that when is comes time for me to buy some more, I can decide for myself what characteristics are most important to me as compared to my last set of tires or ski. For example, if in the future as I start making really strong cuts and I notice that I'm popping a wheelie everytime I turn, if I knew what part of the ski influences that, maybe I could make an adjustment. Or maybe that ski isn't the right fit for me and I need to look for something with a little different design that would help correct for that problem. That is probably a terrible example, but what I'm getting at is that I only know that I'm riding a big plank and when I lean over, it turns. I mainly just wanted to start an interesting discussion that I and other newbies in the future could learn from. Pardon my long windedness.

 

[BigBoatinOkie]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

D3 X5

Big Daddy

Big Kahuna

 

[BF]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

I'm not familiar with the current models, but can answer a couple of your Q's...

As others have said, it's what you intend to do with it, your skill level, size and style that determines the best "fit". Sometimes people say "slalom" when they mean anytime they are skiing on 1 ski. Others mean slalom skiing in an actual slalom course.

Rocker has a huge effect on the ski's turning ability, and also drag. When I was younger, I used to ski slalom (on a course), but then we changed to a different lake w/o a slalom course, and I didn't feel like putting one in myself, so just "free skied" more for recreation. On 1 ski, but no balls to go around. I found the ski that I had with tons of rocker was great for decelerating in the course, but had so much drag that was hugely fatiguing to just ski around on. Also, it was much harder to get up out of the water in a deep water start on it. I also had (still have) a Mastercraft ski that has way less drag, but needs a much different style to turn (needs to really be skied back on the tail). I adapted my style to make the lower drag ski work. Someone watching may think I'm doing great on it, but I know in a course, I could probably do better with the other, higher drag ski, and a style that is more natural to me.

The absolute best thing to do is to try a ski first. When I was a youngin' and had a bunch of friends that skied, we had a selection of 6 or 8 decent ski's within our group. We all tried each others, and found a favorite. Some guys ended up never skiing on their own ski, but always used their buddies because it worked better for them.

If the goal is performance in the course, it could be the ski will feel "twitchy" and slow/draggy when just rec skiing, but will come to life when it's going faster and on the edge. I used to swap the fins around on the ski's... experiments with different ones that had little cross fins on them, but in the end decided I didn't like them. Sometimes on a really hard cut (trying to catch up when behind in the course) I could pop the back of the ski during the cut, which seemed to be caused by the little cross fin. Also, it made the drag of my high drag ski even higher (almost un-skiable).

With rec skiing (no course) a lot of the traits of high performance slalom ski's probably make the ski feel worse than more of a "rec level" ski. When skiing a course, you are going around the ball, accelerating across the wake, and then doing a transition/deceleration time as you approach the ball, if your ski is too fast, you'll end up not slowing down enough to make the turn without creating a bunch of slack line. So a lot of the elements of a course-tuned ski is to make it decelerate fast to allow the turn to happen and keep the line tight. When rec skiing, usually people just adjust the cadence of their turns to suit the speed/ski/style so if feels right. Whether or not that happens to be where a slalom ball would have been located in a course doesn't matter.

So the upshot is that no I don't think all this matters too much to a novice.... unless you are trying to ski a course, and finding you're getting slack line as you approach the ball. For just sking on one ski behind the boat, any good skier would probably make any of the ski's that you posted look good. I'm not sure about the wide one with the Vee bottom though... that looks a little too whacky for an old guy like me.

I remember as a kid of about 13 or 14 complaining that I wanted to get a new ski. I had a taperflex tunnel wood ski, that was a very easy ski to get up and ski on, but it didn't have much rocker, and was way too fast to be a decent slalom ski (in a course). But, one of the adults around who was a good skier, took it for a ride (not in the course) and made it look amazing... My Dad figured... hmm the ski seems fine, doesn't it?? it took a while for me to realize that was apples and oranges... a 200 lb guy skiing rec was different than me in a course... so the next summer is when I actually went out and bought another ski (which BTW made a huge difference in the course). But that taperflex which I still have, is just fine for moderate rec skiing... just can't push it too hard.

If you ever get a chance to run a slalom course (assuming that you're not now), you should try it... having to time your turns around the balls makes a HUGE difference. Kind of like the difference between casually hitting golf balls at a driving range, to actually golfing on a course and keeping score. Both are sort of "golfing" but at the same time, there's a big difference.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

Lol, well I would say that the first thing you should be looking at when having issues on a ski with turning or cutting is TECHNIQUE. Proper technique through a turn is essential before you start adjusting things. After you have ensured that you have the correct technique and are having a certain issue, only then should you start making adjustments to the ski.

The first adjustment after eliminating posture/technique issues is binding placement. On more aggressive skis, you have have adjustable bindings that can aide you in moving your stand further forward or aft on the ski. If you have made all of the adjustments you can with the bindings, only then should you adjust the find to raise/lower or move it forward or back. The fin mainly affects how easily a ski will turn.

So to fix a ski setup issue, the process should be: technique, bindings, fin.

 

[skibrain]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

Hah, that is great.
Owning a ZR1 is one thing. Being a worthy driver of it's potential is quite another.

Here is my technique idol (and pro D3 skier) Terry Winter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EonxoGtl3hk&feature=related

 

[BigBoatinOkie]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

Great info guys. Thanks a lot. I probably won't be running a slalom course anytime soon. My skiing will always be recreational and I have only been doing it a couple months, but I'm an athletic dude and I like to be aggressive in all the sports I do, even golf, and I'm always keepin score. I'm sure my current equipment will keep me happy for a while, but I like to hear people's thoughts on the subject. I noticed that the skiing forum here on iboats gets pretty quiet when there aren't any new subjects to talk about, so I figured this would get some dialogue going.

BTW, that was a great vid Skibrain. That dude is smooth.

Haulnazz, My technique is rubbish, but hey might as well develop the technique on proper well tuned equipment.

 

[gregnva]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

Great writeups and vid also.

But, gotta ask about this:

"Rocker has a huge effect on the ski's turning ability"

What is a "Rocker"? Sorry to be dumb about it...

 

[BigBoatinOkie]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

Great writeups and vid also.

But, gotta ask about this:

"Rocker has a huge effect on the ski's turning ability"

What is a "Rocker"? Sorry to be dumb about it...

Basically the curvature of the ski from tip to tail.

 

[skibrain]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

A slalom ski turns when it is rolled over on edge. That curved profile shape or rocker helps it carve an arc in the water.

As someone posted above, skis have differing amounts of rocker. Some may have more rocker in the tail, or some are relatively flat under the bindings. Stiffness or resistance to flexing and twisting is also significant - how the flex possibly increases the rocker under load, or how lively it feels as it resists that.

Here is a link to the D3 website where they describe the design details of their top of the line ski. $1,299 without bindings. I am quite sure the average person could look at three different D3 models and have a tough time telling the very small differences between them in terms of rocker transition, bevel radius, etc. How is it different than their top ski two years ago? Last year? Constant tweaking and improvement, but extremely subtle stuff.

http://store.d3skis.com/product-p/d3z7.htm

 

[BF]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

As a rec skier, I agree completely that what you need to do is just get out and ski more and develop your technique. The subtleties of design can have a big impact on how a ski performs, but when you're a newbie, you probably haven't developed your own particular style/habits to the point where one thing is better than another. If you get to the point of being a competitive skier etc, that's when if you try one $1000 ski, you might not like it's feel at all, but a different one might fit your style like a glove. I'll use another golf analogy... just because some PGA long bomber uses a particular driver doesn't mean it's what's best for me. I don't have the swing speed to work the extra stiff shaft on their club (it's 90% their swing, 10% the club). I get better results with a softer shaft, and forgiving head design.

EP ski's were big in the 80's... even with them, I had friends that did much better with one model versus another.... and didn't like my ski at all (also an EP). There were some ski's that seemed to fit the majority of people's style reasonably well... and those are the ski's that got a great reputation... O'Brians, and Jobe honeycomb are a couple that come to mind. Seems they felt pretty good to everyone. I think when HO's first came out they got a similar reputation.

So, ski what you got there.... and have fun. When you get a chance to ride someone else's ski, take them up on it! Once you get better, don't forget to try the old "ski on a paddle" thing... doing a deep water start on a paddle impresses people.

 

[BigBoatinOkie]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

Uh......deep water start on a paddle? That's a new one.

 

[BF]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

Uh......deep water start on a paddle? That's a new one.

actually it's a really old one... that was an "old school" trick back in the 70's / 80's. It's so old now that young folks would probably think you invented it. It was part of the "lets ski on something" kick that me and my friends got on. We were always trying to outdo each other. Skiing in a blue recycling type tub... (except they weren't called that then) or on plastic tobaggans were always hits. BTW, you can do 360's in a tub. And "body dragging" was big for us then. Basically hold on to the rope and get dragged/skipped without any tube etc. Lets see the youngin's try that with their baggy shorts.

 

[BigBoatinOkie]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

That's awesome! Sounds like yall knew how to have fun with anything. Baggy shorts suck. I don't like em either, but I'd get made fun of if I wore short shorts. Just be patient, they will make a comeback.

I went out to the lake last night for a few quick runs after work. I did a run with the connely big daddy, and then a run right after it with my HO (the wacky v bottom one). While I like being able to do deep water starts with the big daddy, the HO is much more fun. Even though I'm heavy, the big daddy still feels like it's just riding on top of the water to much, and I don't have as much control. I was running right at 30 mph, maybe I need to slow down a bit for the big daddy and let it dig in some? Anywho, I'll just keep practicing.

 

[craze1cars]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

I've never actually competed, but I have successfully run the course many times in the past. We do it less often now as we're favoring wakeboarding, but we still do a slalom-course day a few times a year so we don't forget how to get thru the buoys.

Here's something that hasn't been discussed yet...bindings.

I switched from rear toe-hold to full double-boot slalom years ago. I'll NEVER look back. In fact I borrowed a buddy's slalom yesterday (rear toe-hold) to do some open water skiing just since I haven't done it in a while and we were on his boat, primarily wakeboarding, but I didn't have my ski with me. Was the first time I rode a different ski in probably 5 years. The difference between his ski and mine were substantial.

First thing I noticed is that I had to adjust my technique to keep that back heel from walking around. That's simply due to me growing accustomed to my double-boot.

Second thing I noticed is that I could NOT make a fast/sharp turn around my "imaginary" buoy anywhere near as fast as I could on mine. Not sure why.

Third thing I noticed is that his ski was much easier and more stable when riding flat, whereas mine was much easier and more stable when way down on an edge. Began to realize mine was probably designed to be much more of a 'competition' type of ski that really needs to be on edge to work properly, and his was a much more recreational ski that was happy riding flat.

Fourth, his ski is a lot easier to do deep water starts on than mine is. Pretty sure that's due to the better flat-position stability. But once I'm up, I much prefer mine. Slalom skis are not supposed to ride flat anyway...you should almost ALWAYS be on an edge.

The ski I own and have grown very accustomed to is a double-boot Connelly Concept. Shown here, but mine's a few years older and different graphics. http://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?r=view&i=14053&aID=600A3&cID=FROOGLE_14053
I have no idea what kind of ski I borrowed yesterday. I also know my Concept has multiple adjustments that make an enormous difference when I have experimented with them...both boots and be moved SUBSTANTIALLY forward or backward, or spread apart from one another or closer together, the fin can be adjusted forward or backward, and the little "braking fin" can be removed, or set at various angles to brake faster or slower, etc...all of these adjustments surprisingly change the characteristics of how quickly it turns, how fast it can cut across the wakes, and how quickly you can make a turn around a buoy.

I guess my only point is, skis handle VERY different from one another, AND an individual quality slalom ski should come with MANY adjustments that will help you dial it in for your preference. But as for WHICH design characteristics impact which handling characteristics, I am very sorry but I honestly have no idea. So I agree very much with "try before you buy" if at all possible, and just see what you like best. Then experiment with adjustments. But in the end, don't agonize over your choice...because you will grow accustomed to whatever ski you end up buying and using regularly.

But I will always recommend people consider the possibility of a double boot. In running an actual course, I know it has made a big difference in whether or not I hit or miss an occasional buoy...because I have the option of pulling up and out on that back boot as hard and suddenly as I might need to, in order to correct a less-than-perfect approach where I need to quickly change my trajectory. If I were to try that move on a toe-hold, my foot would simply slip out and I'd miss. So it's not necessary by any means, but it is more or less an emergency tool in my arsenal that has helped me save an imperfect run that I probably would have completely missed otherwise. And frankly, I just find it "feels" much more comfortable and natural to have both feet in identical-feeling bindings.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

But I will always recommend people consider the possibility of a double boot. In running an actual course, I know it has made a big difference in whether or not I hit or miss an occasional buoy...because I have the option of pulling up and out on that back boot as hard and suddenly as I might need to, in order to correct a less-than-perfect approach where I need to quickly change my trajectory. If I were to try that move on a toe-hold, my foot would simply slip out and I'd miss. So it's not necessary by any means, but it is more or less an emergency tool in my arsenal that has helped me save an imperfect run that I probably would have completely missed otherwise. And frankly, I just find it "feels" much more comfortable and natural to have both feet in identical-feeling bindings.

Well, there are several world champion slolam skiers who ski 36-off with a rear toe plate. The bindings are purely a personal preference thing. I have ridden on skis with double boots, high wraps, and rear toe-plates. Most of the time I don't see much of a difference as long as my form doesn't change.

 

[skibrain]

Re: Slalom Ski Design

C1C, good stuff.

BBO, in terms of your HO vs. the Big Daddy, slowing down might allow it to ride lower in the water and roll over on edge, but obviously it's width is going to be working against that.

It would be really interesting for you to be able to try some of the shaped skis like the HO Freeride (Magnum is 70 or 71") or Connelly FX, or HO Triumph, O'Brien Synchro. Wider up front but narrower in the tail. OR some of the traditional slaloms that are narrower overall, but available in a 70" length: Connelly HP or O'Brien World Team are a couple of those.