see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

rodbolt

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

dogsdad.<br /> in every govt we have tried to install we pretty much failed. theses tribes have been at war with each other for centuries. they dontwant a democracy,never did probly never will.<br /> collectivly we tend to forget that the culture,relgion and way of life is now and always will be different.<br /> the reason whynot much terror came from Iraq is due to the way saddam ruled. it wash harsh but effective. that is why Bush senior left him in power in 91. we had no plan to do anything with the power vacum that would be left with his ouster. we still dont. we still dont have enough troops and materiels to cover 25 million people that dont like us. theyhate each other and like us less. byinstalling a govt that no one but those with power like we will condem the area to more violence. we really should have attacked jordan and saudi Arabia. that is were the funds and training come from. Iraq wasa place to attack to show we are doing something. but I think it was the wrong place. as far as a "waron Terror" its impossible. who surrenders? who signs a treay? its like the war on poverty ordrugs. you cannot wage war on a subjective matter. wehave terrorist training camp here. one is less than 40 miles from my house. they are killing for money. theyare hired to the highest bidder. does the fact that they speak english and have last names like smith and jones make them less of a terroist that someone named ackbar killing for allah?<br /> the problem with training terroist's,no matter the cause or nationality, is once trained the knowledge cannot be controled. we created Al-Quaida in the late 70's and early 80's. we had them at bases in the states and in pakistan. we did a fine job only now they are useing it against us instead of as freedom fighters against the russians in afghanistan. that is how we know so much about who is who in the organization is cause we created it to keep the russians unstable in afghanistan in the 1980"s. now we are reaping what we sowed. but now we are in a quandry cause there is no "enemy" and no one that can call for a cessation of hostilities.<br /> who is a terroist? do thay have big red T's tattoed on the forehead? maybe wear red shirts or something?<br /> so you tell me how to defeat a ghost that cannot be Identified? and tell me and maybe the Bush administration who can sign the treaty papers?<br />I bet they will be happy.
 

spratt

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

Originally posted by dogsdad:<br /> <br />Perhaps you think the way to win a boxing match is to stand against the ropes and take punch after punch in hopes the other guy will lose interest, wear himself out, or just inexplicably walk away. :rolleyes: <br /><br /><br />-dd-
Now THAT is truly the Kerry line of thinking. He would love to just sit at the table and discuss the situation with the terrorists, and see if there is a diplomatic way to resolve the issue. Mr Terrorist, isn't there a way we can just diplomatically give you control of teh USA without a war? Our folks don't like death, and don't really want their boys dying for freedom, so if we can just real diplomatically hand control of our country over to you, maybe you won't crash planes into ouor buildings, or maybe you won't send any suicide bombers into our shopping malls, or any violence at all. After all, i would like to go into history as teh only guy who eschewed violence, and "Made love, not war"...
 

Ralph 123

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

in every govt we have tried to install we pretty much failed
Germany? Japan? Italy? South Korea? Nicaragua? El Salvador? Yup all total failures ;)
 

woodrat

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

you can't "install" a democracy.<br /><br />and besides, when democracies produce results we don't like, we try to undo them. Chile, venezuela for example.<br /><br />Dogsdad:<br /><br />Iraq did not declare war on us.
 

spratt

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

woodrat:<br /><br />Perhaps Iraq did not officially declare a Governmental edict of war, but when a group performs teh feat they did on 9/11, we can only assume it was an act of war and retaliate. But then, perhaps it was only a small group of disgruntled Iraqi's and they were venting...<br /><br />No, this country was attacked, and we did the only thing that was open to us, I believe. If we had done nothing, or if we had gone to the mediation table to discuss tehir anger towards us, perhaps by now we would have had many of our cities attacked in various ways. We are so blessed to not have been attacked on our homefront before now. I for one believe it is because we have shown a strong hand tot he world, and caused them to take notice that we are a force to reckon with. Terrorists, whatever country or group they represent, are rats with no fear in them, resembling a chihuahua that has no idea what recourse the German Shepherd will take when attacked...usually death.<br /><br />I am proud of the action taken by President Bush, adn support him in that decision. Quick, deadly retaliation.
 

SCO

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

Interesting logic Woodrat. Let me make a partial list of the Kerry Achilles heel plan for our country.<br /><br />1 If they don't declare war on us we cant defend ourselves, therefore terrorists allied with corrupt regimes becomes the popular modus operandi to get the USA. <br /><br />2 If we dont have a coalition of corrupt and hostile allies to agree then we can't defend ourselves.<br /><br />3 If we dont have a concrete exit schedule we cant defend ourselves(july 22nd for example).Of course that plan sustains any " insurgency" because they also have the exit schedule date in mind.<br /><br />4 If the going gets tough, then we have to declare that all is lost and all prior effort is in vain and abandon our best hope for future peace: Democracy in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. Many of us Southerners wish Kerry rather than Lincoln had been pres during the civil war(just kidding, but you get the point). <br /><br />5 Even if the best evidence that the world has is that Saddam has WMD's, we can't take action even when the UN has sanctioned a country that has sued for peace in a prior cease fire agreement. Yes sir, those wolves will behave cause they deep down just want to get along. If we smiled at the beasts rather than bristled at them , they respond in kind.<br /><br />6 Have a press that will characterize the 911 deaths asa "trajedy" and the recent 50 Iraqi Soldier murders as a"massacre".<br /><br />7 have a CBS news crew plan that that will "break" a news story re weapons from an Iraqi Bunker being lost on W's watch on the election eve( new , check Drudge report, ..and we Repubs scare you crabbait with our fearmonger wolve adds???? )<br /><br />8 Kerry will walk confidently with a little stick( vs walking softly with a big stick). He doesn't need a big stick because of his superior intelligence and persuasive abilities.<br /><br />9 Kerry is all rattle and no saber.<br /><br />10 Face it, you people are toothless, and want our country to be toothless.
 

lakelivin

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

Professor, I think you misinterpreted the reason for my post. You state that:<br />__________<br /><br />'You are merely trying to offer what someone else has presented as "evidence" of the rightness of your belief.<br /><br />Please, tender any opinions you like; but don't back them up with propaganda. It only makes you look like the rest of the gum-flappers who will say or do anything they think will further their agendae.'<br />________________<br /><br />My intent was to illustrate the dynamic (accessing left brain vs. right brain thinking) behind the power of the wolves commercial, which is what this thread was originally about. <br /><br />I quoted the article because it was the easiest reference I could find that clearly explaines the principle. If I had enough time perhaps I could have found something non-partisan to make the illustration, but believe me, time is in short supply for me! If you reread my comments at the start you'll note that I acknowledge that the article is partisan and that I specify that one can ignore the politics behind the article and still get my point. To repeat my comment preceding the article:<br /><br />"I think the following article probably sums up the rational behind the wolves commercial. Yes, the article is pretty negative towards Bush. But ignoring the politics behind it, I suspect the scientific principles it illustrates are fairly sound. (And that the Kerry campaign would not be above the same tactics, just that it's harder to produce that primal response with imagery geared towards economic issues)."<br /><br />As far as the value (or lack thereof) of the admittedly partisan political points made in the article, I leave it up to each reader to make his or her own judgement.
 

POINTER94

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

Originally posted by woodrat.<br /><br />
If the left has been moving further and further left for as long as you conservatives have been claiming that, and it started out as bad as you conservatives say, and it truly ran the world like you conservatives like to say, I think we would all be lining up in the rain waiting for our toilet paper ration. what went wrong?
Right now the timing. We are lining up for our ration of prescriptions, SS benefits, health care, government cheese, milk, butter, bread, food stamps, education, transportation, free heat, free electric, free child care, free child murder, free condoms, free birth control pills, free dental, free or subsidized immunizations, free phones (in certain cities), free computers, free books, free movies, free magazines, free internet, free music cd’s, child care, before school programs, after school programs, pre-kindergarten programs and on and on and on……. But you are right, no lines for toilet paper yet
 

woodrat

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

You guys seem really convinced that iraq had something to with 911. I just don't see where you are getting your info. Spratt goes as far as to actually say that 911 was a maybe a "small group of disgruntled iraqis... venting."<br /><br />I think you should call the w administration up and hand over your evidence! They've been searching high and low for proof of what you allege, and can't find it anywhere!<br /><br />Once again, there are those of us who correctly maintain that invading a tinpot dictatorship (that we used to support) halfway around the world who did not attack us (and as far as we know none of their nationals attacked us either) does not constitute self defense. It is a war of invasion and aggression. the only way that iraq threatened us was by getting ready to sell their oil to the europeans instead of us. That DOES indeed threaten our "way of life" but not in the way W and his pals assert.<br /><br />Why didn't we bomb the crap out of the saudis? Most of the highjackers WERE saudi nationals, according to the W administration. By your logic that is exactly where the bombs should have been falling. None did, in fact we still treat the saudis as friends! That is some pretty twisted logic, but it seems a sizable percentage of the population is prepared to buy it.<br /><br />And forget the kerry plan. Criticizing W is not equivalent to praising kerry. I do think that kerry is several times more articulate, more intelligent and less filled with hubris and blind self assuredness as W is, but that kind of thing rarely makes any difference to the average american voter. Turn on the fear button and all is under control. And that 's what the W administration has been about from the get go. If it weren't for 911, anybody, including Mickey Mouse, could throw W out of the white house on his ear. Besides, I've heard kerry promise several times to continue the iraq war, just "differently", whatever that means.<br /><br />I think that the W guys have a grand plan, I'll give them that much, and the war in iraq is just the tip of the iceberg. Afghanistan and iraq were both in the planning stages well before the 2000 election even took place, and there will be more to come after W is selected again. This is a war that will never be over as long as these guys are in power, because it has no clear goals or definitions, or even a well defined enemy. There is no way to ever judge whether it has been "won' so it will just go on and on. Its been seventeen months since we declared victory in iraq and there is no peace or even a cease fire in sight. And if you all think that this can go on indefintely like that without a draft, you are just fooling yourselves.
 

SCO

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

Woodrat, you are getting there. There is a serious problem with the middle east. The idea of taking us on has been spreading unabated for some time. We dont need proof of a direct connection between Iraq and 911, because they were in flagrent violation of the ceasefire agreements and displaying outright contempt for the USA and UN, spreading the idea to the rad islamic masses that we could be challenged and ultimately defeated...that's dangerous to us. Remember the paper tiger talk??? that led directly to 911. Afghanistan and Iraq is demonstrating that we are not paper tigers, unless Kerry is elected. He is their best hope for their war on the USA.
 

oddjob

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

I'm voting for Bush!....If "W" starts the draft as the Dems promise, Then maybe they will overlook my age and let me back in!....yeehaaaw! :)
 

woodrat

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

pointer:<br /><br />wow, that's a lot of free stuff! Where do I sign up? (kidding, OK?)<br /><br />for the record, the only government "free stuff" my family makes use of is public school. We were homeschoolers, but my youngest girl really wanted to be more "normal" and go to public school so we sent her, with many misgivings, I might add. But that isn't free to me, since i do pay property taxes.<br /><br />SCO:<br /><br />regarding toothless, i think we are wasting our teeth somewhere that it does not serve us. Unless we succeed in taking over all of the oil there, the whole venture will have been for naught as far as I'm concerned. We are never going to "install" a functional american style democracy there (some would argue these days that that is an oxymoron anyway), no matter how many people we kill. And even if the oil is secured for american companies to extract, they will probably just sell it to the europeans and chinese themselves. <br /><br />Think where we could be right now energy wise if we had started taking the oil problem more seriously back in '74, and started coming up with a serious plan to get off the ***. Instead its just been more and more mindless consumption and when the end of cheap oil does come to america, (it is knocking on the door right now, by the way - diesel $2.39/gal, was 1.49 before the war), its gonna be a mess. We WILL be standing in line for our petroleum ration and it won't be because of the socialists.
 

lakelivin

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

Originally posted by spratt:<br /> woodrat:<br /><br />Perhaps Iraq did not officially declare a Governmental edict of war, but when a group performs teh feat they did on 9/11, we can only assume it was an act of war and retaliate. But then, perhaps it was only a small group of disgruntled Iraqi's and they were venting...<br /><br />No, this country was attacked, and we did the only thing that was open to us, I believe......
spratt,<br />My major personal goal during this election is to remain as objective as possible in evaluating the political spin and discourse from each side before I make my final decision. But I can't help but respond to your post, as the belief that there was a direct link between Iraq and the 9/11 attack seems to be a misconception that persists even though directly addressed and discounted by the nonpartisan 9/11 commission. <br /><br />I'm sure there are others who can direct you to objective sources about this issue. I'm almost positive that none of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi. I don't know the exact numbers, but I believe the majority were Saudi Arabian.
 

SCO

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

Woodrat, we needed to stay oil based to win the cold war, but I agree that in a perfect world it would have been good to become oil independent. The anti nuke crowd prevented nuclear energy's development (which included me at the time) but now it looks pretty good. I also agree not to waste teeth, but in sum total, Kerry looks frightenly toothless to me(my point) so how is that going to deter aggression? The problem is, from my perspective, that aggression is spilling out of the middle east and we have no choice but to respond forcefully as we have because we had not in the past. Since we have to fight anyway to deter them, maybe we can get a democracy over there... Was going into Iraq a mistake?? I don't know and history will unfold to make it clear some day. But how can we expect all the unknowns to work out to our favor with 2020 hindsight. No war or struggle is without its failures...I've cited the civil war...so dont throw out the baby with the bath water is my thought. It would be like dumping Washington or Lincoln or FDR. There was plenty to criticize them for in their times.
 

woodrat

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

I think that the reason that the crazies in the middle east hate us so much is becuase of our previous behavior in the middle east. Ramping up that kind of arrogant attitude and backing it up with death and destruction is not going to make them give up their hatred of us, nor do I think that there is some finite number of crazies over there and once we kill them off, then problem solved. This war has probably extended the life of radical islam by at least another fifty years. <br /><br />nuclear power is and always has been a dangerous boondoggle and it will not fuel our cars anyway. the anti-nuke crowd had plenty of help from the obvious and publicizied problems endemic to the nuke industry. Electrical energy demand is something that every american household, including mine, could probably cut by a third without suffering any loss of services, but we won't bother because its still too cheap.
 

spratt

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

Originally posted by woodrat:<br /> ...nor do I think that there is some finite number of crazies over there and once we kill them off, then problem solved....
Amen! It seems like every time we kill a bunch of them, more take their place...they must be breeding somewhere...<br /><br />Just an attempt at wry humor. In actuality, I think that as much as we believe in what we are doing, they do too, believe in what THEY are doing. They REALLY do see us as a Satan, and REALLY do believe that we are trying to wipe out their religion. And maybe we are, I dunno about that. :confused: <br /><br />I know that there are religions here in teh good ol' USA that make me scratch my head, shake it back and forth in wonder and amusement, and make me ask myself "Is there any real way they can actually beleive what they claim to believe???"
 

SCO

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

Thanks for the debate Woodrat. I agree with you about this part:<br /><br /> "I think that the reason that the crazies in the middle east hate us so much is becuase of our previous behavior in the middle east. "<br /><br />In that we protected the oil supply in the gulf war. But what choice did we have. Oil is food for a country our size. Suffer the analogy of the movie "Roadwarrior". Its like dealing with the crocodile, we have to take a drink and face the jaws. We cant make them like us and it because we are not "chosen" people in their eyes. Were infidels and it's our existence that bugs them. They are literally racist(well, like racist,same phenomonem but based on religon). Lethal deterrance is all we have that can deter them. We have to force the hand of natural selection like it was forced on the Nazis. Peoplesay they are stuck in the middle ages. Well in the middle ages they were trying to takeover Europe. Istanbul for example was once Roman Constantinople. Spain was Islamic till the 1400's. What about Muslims in the Balkens. Point is that they are not simply defensive and reactivein nature. <br /><br />WRT to cutting oil, cant do thatwithout dealing with the population bomb. So you cut a third. The population has doubled at least once since I was a kid.
 

woodrat

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

My grandparents grew up happy and healthy with almost no oil or electricity of any kind (granddad born in '01, lived to be 102). I lived in the back country with my family for five years on almost no electricity (two solar panels and a cranky generator in the winter). We had no refrigerator for the first year and a half. We did not starve, get sick or freeze to death. The opulent american way of life is not a necessity for survival, although if you went out to the shopping mall and took a poll, you'd probably get a different answer. <br /><br />And when (not if) the cheap oil runs out, we will have to deal with the same problems anyway, they'll just be bigger because we ignored it for so long. War for oil is only a temporary stopgap. We may get around to roadwarrior yet, again, no matter how many of the other infidels we kill. i just don't see the bush plan for oil domination as being what we need to be doing. We need to be making radical changes in our lifestyle to get ready for the end of cheap oil, and we are not doing anything of the sort. Instead, our national energy policy is to just go out and kick *** and grab all that we can before someone else does. Granted, it IS a plan, and I haven't heard kerry offer one, but I haven't heard the bush folks honestly own their plan for what it is either.<br /><br />Spratt:<br /><br />they don't need to see us as Satan, all they need to do is look at the simple fact that we invaded their country, bombed their neighborhoods and killed their loved ones. What would YOU do in their shoes? Throw flowers at the feet of the invading army? No you'd probably fight like hell to expel them and the worse it looked, the harder you'd fight.
 

SCO

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

I'd counter with the example of China. Their development means power and their oil consumption is going way up.. The oil we consume rightly or wrongly, and our opulent lifestyle is what has made us the most powerful country on the planet. It's about the economy and the money to pay for our technology and defense. What we need to do is to end social spending, then we may be able to afford to cut down on our oil consumption. Is Kerry for that either??? No. He wants to have and promise it all. We can't without oil. During your grandparents grapes of wrath days, there wasn't much in the way of social spending. Being a minimalist, the thought to get back to those days is appealing to me . Are the democrats really ready to change the world or are they just trying to paint the republicans as greedy? They want the money for their programs, they need the oil, they need the economy to prop it all up on its wobbly legs straining under the massive weight of our supersized government(yes I am criticizing W on this point too).
 

woodrat

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Re: see that bush 'wolve' commercial.?

I know. What ticks me off the most about the democrats as an alternative to bush is that they also want us to believe that if we elect their guy, we can go back to sleep and live out our days in fat and happy luxury. That we can continue to slurp up the lion's share of the world's oil without running out, OR pissing off the people we grabbed it from. It is a hazy foggy little dream world that is NOT true. Unfortunately, neither is the BUSH vision, that we can live out our days in fat and happy luxury because our boys in uniform are out there killing all who would stand in our way, on our behalf. Either story is wishful thinking at best and outright lies at worst. Change is coming and neither party or any other establishment figures or organizations have a realistic plan to deal with it, or even acknowledge the problem. China is going to be a HUGE problem for us as they demand more oil. So what is our government doing? helping our auto manufacturers to promote the private automobile in China! How crazy is that? We should wish for china to be using donkey carts for as long as possible, not selling them buicks!
 
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