Schools

CJY

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Re: Schools

IMO, all schools should be privatized. No more public schools, all 100% vouchers, parents can send kids to whatever school they want and pay for everything with the vouchers.<br />
KIZ, please explain how you believe this would fix everything. Do you believe that "choice" fixes everything?<br /><br /><br />
Privitized schools gives the choices back to the parents.<br /><br />Dont want prayer in your kids school, pick that one.<br /><br />They will have to teach similar skills and pass the same standard tests.<br />
Congrats KIZ, you just invented parochial and the public school systems. You have this choice as we speak.<br /><br />"Similar skills and tests".....standardized by whom? East LA, Greenwich Village, Beverly Hills???<br /><br /><br />
If some of those consequences are good, we'll smile. If some of those consequences are bad are we somehow simultaneously paralyzed and incapable of change and growth? I thought that's what progressives tout? Change and growth? <br />
It's not the unpredictable circumstances that will keep schools from becoming completely privatized. Rather, it's the predictable ones that will.<br /><br />Privatizing public schools would completely polarize each and every community. It would be the haves vs. the have-nots. Don't think so, think some more. Scenario: Two children, one lives in the affluent region of town while the other does not. The "quality" private school is located, well, you know where, and is within walking distance, while the other student would like to attend the "quality" school but has no transportation due to single parent home that has to work. Do you think there would be buses to take students to the school of their choice? Yah right. If so, on whose dollar?<br /><br />I think sometimes the public believes the word "private" would give them greater input into their child's education at a particular school. They believe they would have a greater influence on curriculum or other things the parents believe makes a difference. Nothing could be further from the truth. If anything, the parent would be completely removed from any any influence on the schools. The private school would have no reason to listen to them as long as they continue to have students accepted to top universities. <br /><br /><br />KIZ mentioned vouchers. What exactly is a voucher? A voucher is a piece of paper worth X amount of dollars that a student could use to attend a private school of their choice. Who is going to pay for these vouchers, local, state, federal? State and federal have already been making massive cuts leaving many districts in the red. Local... what if you want your child to attend outside your locality because they have everything you want for your child? Probably won't be able to go. Most would not want their tax dollars to pay for students from another community.<br /><br />The voucher vs. public debate has never answered the single-most important question we should all want the answer to. How will private schools improve education? Higher standards....how, whose standards? More choice....for some, but they already have choices other less fortunate students do not. How much choice do the "private" schools have when selecting their students? Full choice...none? <br /><br />Many parents want to manage public schools in their own best interest. When they realize they cannot do this, they begin to scream, privatize. Show me a parent that believes they can fix every problem their child has, whether it be the child's fault or not, and I will show you a child that has no regard for consequences.<br /><br />Humans will still be teaching after having attended the same universities as they do today for the same pay as today. Starting teacher salary depending where you live, as low as $20,000. Compare that to a MD or Lawyer salary. My point, many top students/minds go elsewhere to make a living. Education also has parents and the government wanting to control or pressure every aspect of education making it an undesirable profession. You make the choice, what would you tell your children to do? Don't give me the amount of education differs. At least where I live, by the time a teacher retires, they will be required to take more classes than any graduating lawyer will ever have to take.<br /><br />In the end:<br /> Children will still go to school hungry, tired, addicted, angry, and apathetic. There will still be parents that...well, let's just say the apple does not always fall far from the tree. There will still be schools that are underfunded while others drown in their great economy. There will still be people that are allowed to become teachers because there are millions of openings while there are lawyers on every street corner. <br /><br />We have become victims of our own ignorance and apathy.
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Schools

Privitizing schools puts the responsibility of education back in the parents hands and out of the governments.<br /><br />Why does that scare you so much?<br /><br /><br />Ken
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Schools

Privitization does give you choice. If you dont like that school pull your kid out and put them in a different one.<br /><br />I dont know what they have set up in your state, but in Texas I have to provide proof of residence before my kids can go to school. An electric bill with my name on it is about the only acceptabe form of proof. Can't use rental property or a friends address. Sure there are ways around it for rich people, but usually they are rich enough so they can afford private schools without vouchers.<br /><br />Ken
 

txswinner

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Re: Schools

So Ken under your plan do kids have to attend school? Not attacking serious.
 

CJY

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Re: Schools

Privitizing schools puts the responsibility of education back in the parents hands and out of the governments.<br /><br />Why does that scare you so much?<br />
I will begin by saying that it only scares me because it is not the real issue. Did you not read my post?<br /><br />One question, which parent will we elect to make all the decisions. If you want control of your child's education, home schooling is an option you have a right to. <br /><br />Why are you trying to force your own personal dissatisfaction with public education on everyone else by eliminating the choice of the majority? You have many options, public, home, parochial, or any other private school you have access to. It's simple, choose an option that satisfies you and don't force others to change a decision they have already made.
 

CJY

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Re: Schools

Furthermore, education does not have to be in the hands of the government to begin with. As with many other instances, the gov slowly removes our rights while we sit back collecting $600 income tax checks with big smiles on our faces. Then when we fill our gas tanks and that money is gone we start biotching about our erosion of rights and begin blaming parties that have their hands tied. When the gov began enforcing standardized testing to graduate, what were you saying then? We all sat back happy over what a wonderful job our gov is doing. The old slight of hand trick caught you napping.
 

Kwas

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May 13, 2004
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Re: Schools

One of the biggest problems that I see with the current system of government schools is there is really no way to insure quality teachers. There are too many teachers in the government schools that are not qualified to do the job and they CANNOT be fired. In New York there have been only 2 teachers in the last 2 years fired for incompetence. Does that mean that the rest of them are competent? not by a long shot. In private and charter schools they don't have kind of union protection. Private and charter schools must comply with state and county academic standards.
 

CJY

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Re: Schools

there is really no way to insure quality teachers
Agreed, but that is the same in any profession. Teacher shortages make it easier for the unqualified to teach. Why do we have shortages, because the more intelligent select a career in which they can pay the bills and not have to deal with public ignorance. There are certainly no lawyer shortages. Therefore, the bar can be set to a higher standard weeding out the incompetent. Upon leaving a university, all but top flight schools have little competition for positions.<br /><br />
they CANNOT be fired
Anybody can be fired. Unions are not that strong and they will not support proven incompetency. Rather, it is the work of administrators having no backbone. There is much red tape when it comes to firing a teacher. Your case must be well documented, and then the red tape is crazy. The building principal, personnel, superintendent, and the BOE all have a hand in it. Remember, these are the same people counting on voter support for their existance and in many cases they try to avoid any PR problems. Right or wrong, you decide. Is it necessary in their eyes many times, yes.<br /><br />
Private and charter schools must comply with state and county academic standards.
Wait, I thought you wanted it out of the hands of the gov? :confused: <br /><br /> County? :confused: They have nothing to do with it now. <br /><br />So you have proposed we set up new shops that are run the same as those of today? Good idea. :rolleyes:
 

txswinner

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Re: Schools

Public School Problems:<br /><br />1. Superintendents: Usually degrees in education not business, therefore the business of schools is not handled as a business but by those trained to teach. Use Business Management people to run the system, what business would ask a PhD in education to direct its transportation or a person trained to coach PE to direct its purchasing department.<br /><br />2. Quit promoting poor coaches to be campus administrators. It was fine when we beat the kids into submission but that is no longer the case. Perhaps we should use those with strong morals and training toward development and child behavior.<br /><br />3. Quit overpaying the administration and starving the teachers. A good HR manager from the private sector could eliminate the fat and lazy in the system.<br /><br />The sad part the same can be said only more strongly at the college level. Colleges and college budgets are directed by academians rather than in the hands of business people.<br /><br />Boy, I bet I p....ed off a certain Mod on this one.
 

tommays

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Re: Schools

Anybody can be fired. Unions are not that strong and they will not support proven incompetency<br />
Ya just like doctors and laywers will help you get rid of a bad doctor or laywer :rolleyes: <br /><br /><br />Just why is it the teaching profession needs tenure ? <br /><br />
The critical element that allows these professors to express these views so openly and without fear of retaliation is academic freedom and its underpinning, tenure.
Are they teaching a subject or teaching there point of view :confused: <br /><br /><br />tommays
 

heycods

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Nov 11, 2005
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Re: Schools

Originally posted by JB:<br /> Even in Texas home schooled students score higher in scholastic achievement tests than public school students.<br /><br />.
Now Im offended, Were not some 3rd world country here. :(
 

CJY

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Re: Schools

Ya just like doctors and laywers will help you get rid of a bad doctor or laywer <br />
Happens every day. You have never heard of a malpractice suit?
 

tommays

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Re: Schools

Happens every day. You have never heard of a malpractice suit?
..<br /><br />Ya lawyers love going after doctors BUT a LOT harder to get one to go after a lawyer<br /><br />And they pretty much allways have to get a DOCTOR from outside the area as there expert as it tends to kill your career.<br /><br />Haveing been sent home with a sling when i needed surgery i have seen all to well how they circle the wagons and protect each other<br /><br />tommays
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Schools

Originally posted by CJY:<br />
Privitizing schools puts the responsibility of education back in the parents hands and out of the governments.<br /><br />Why does that scare you so much?<br />
I will begin by saying that it only scares me because it is not the real issue. Did you not read my post?<br /><br />One question, which parent will we elect to make all the decisions. If you want control of your child's education, home schooling is an option you have a right to. <br /><br />Why are you trying to force your own personal dissatisfaction with public education on everyone else by eliminating the choice of the majority? You have many options, public, home, parochial, or any other private school you have access to. It's simple, choose an option that satisfies you and don't force others to change a decision they have already made.
Yes, I read you post. This may not be the issue to YOU, but it is to me. I believe I am better suited than ther government to raise my kids.<br /><br />Home schooling isnt an option. I have to work for a living. I dont earn enough for a private school. If all schools were private, I would be allowed to send my kids to any school I see fit as long as they have room. Right now I dont have that option.<br /><br />Wouldnt it be a great that if the kids in the poor neghborhoods had the option of going to any school in the region?<br /><br />Right now in Baytown, I had to limit to where I bought my new house as to what schools my kids would go to. There were some really nice cheap houses I had to pass on cause the schools were crap.<br /><br />I think the problem is that you view private schools as being vastly different from public schools. I envison little differences. My children being allowed to pray is one.<br /><br />Ken
 

Kwas

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Re: Schools

Wait, I thought you wanted it out of the hands of the gov?<br /><br /> I didn't say that but that's a good start. We have to have standards, I don't know who else should set them. The government shouldn't run schools because they do a poor job. It should be private and Charter schools. <br /><br />County? They have nothing to do with it now.<br /><br /> In some states the county does.<br /><br />So you have proposed we set up new shops that are run the same as those of today? Good idea.<br /><br /> New shops but run better then the government is doing.
 

rolmops

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Re: Schools

At least in upstate NY we have a lot of say in our state schools.Our school district is mostly made up of parents who really care about education.In fact around here, private schools have a hard time surviving because most parents insist on sending their kids to our very high end state schools.As for charter schools,around here they tried to set up seven so far.Six of them were closed by the authorities because they were long on rethoric and short on results.Number 7 is one of the top 100 schools(26th) in the country.
 

CJY

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Re: Schools

KIZ, the complete dismantling of public education so your children can pray at school? Your kids can pray at school as we speak, be it public or private. They just cannot be lead in school organized prayer. Besides, I thought you wanted to raise your children? I guess it is ok for the church to raise them though? What a scary thought that is. What about praying at home, church, the 17 hours per day they are not in school, Saturadays, Sundays? It has to take place as organized prayer between the hours of 8 am and 3 pm? If you are that unable to be flexible in that regard, you are chasing a dream.<br /><br />I know when my children were growing up, I moved several times before I was happy with the school my children were to attend. Did not own a boat, lived modestly for the most part. If my only option were to sell my boat to send them to private, I would have never given it a second thought. Hmmm, what an idea.... 94 sea raider + 90 hp merc = school tuition. Sometimes we have to make sacrifices. So, I believe you have options. However, you want your cake and eat it too.
 

CJY

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Re: Schools

Kwas, if the government is setting the standards, nothing has changed. <br /><br />The gov does not run schools, they set the minimum to graduate which is what you still want. They simply give and take money away at their discretion. What makes you think the government is running schools?<br /><br />Furthermore, what evidence do you have private would vastly improve education? Public education cannot be dismantled on a prayer you know.
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Schools

I cant argue with someone who completly distorts my words and thoughts.<br /><br />You still havent explained your fear in privitizing schools.<br /><br />And oh yea, I already send the 3yr old to private school and the other one was private schooled till I could no longer afford to. Dont lecture me about sacrifices. HOW INSULTING!!!! :mad: <br /><br />Ken
 
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