Re: Question about using epoxy resin with 1708 cloth?
You aren't getting it about mat and definitely have never worked with it...never. But that's right, you knock experience if it isn't yours. Anyway, anyone who has time with the stuff knows the redeeming values. A single layup of 1.5oz mat is massively stronger than a 1/4" balsa core...end grain or not. That single layup, however, is NOT as stiff as solid end grain but is more stiff than cubed endgrain. I can take a hammer and destroy 1/4" endgrain balsa in 2 seconds...it isn't easy to destroy a single 1.5oz mat layup...not even close. The balsa core layup skin will have much less punchure resistance than a solid layup with mat in between. But the reason for mat is nothing to do with cores to make stiff lightweight panels. I guarantee epoxy will peel off balsa LONG before it peels off mat...again, not even close. Had you any experience in hurricane damaged boats it would be quite clear what the differences and values are for each. Core boats skins get punchured easily compare to solid layups, period. Cores are stiff (like egg) and light but cannot take concentrated pressure point impacts (like eggs) anywhere near solid cores. Comparing balsa core VS mat for stiffness is just way off the engineering scale of reality. In high contrast to what you call cheap...core boats are the cheap way to build lightweight...because nobody wants to pay for expensive high tech materials that require labor intensive structures. That's why core boats exist. But whatever books you are reading surely aren't on frp engineering. Maybe you should try Pascoe on cores...he is dead on reality...but beware, it's based on personal experience.
Unless they have changed vendors recently the west info is a misprint about epoxy...yes it's a surprise to me and I will check it. Regardless, if I'm wrong it's human error because I didn't keep up with vendors...I quit 3 working there months ago and it was a great job after retiring from a real job. They have 50,000 products and nobody can keep up with vendor changes, not even you. Anyway, why did you not address and bring forth credible info about Bondo mat as you stated to be epoxy compatible? I suppose it's the note from 3M providing conflicting accuracy? What about the fact that in reality most vendors still do not sell epoxy compatible mat? So where did your references come from that you hold to as reliable?
Now that my fingers are warmed up...lets address another misleading statement you previously made...talk about chopper gun...you said it's weaker than mat. In reality a chopper gun application is NO different than mat. It's all in the operator's skill, otherwise they are 100% equal in strength. Mat is basically used to zero out operator error to eliminate thin spots and/or irregular laminations...and reduces labor of handlaid. Of course you know all about tracers and red catalyst so I won't go into detail how they are used to help reduce operator error. Yes, I have chopper gun experience...and done numerous test panels of both...and of woven cloths...a few balsa and pvc core materials too. How bout you? Books, message boards? Bottom line is those who think mat gives "no" strength are so wrong it isn't funny. All anyone has to do is lay up a few test panels and see for themselves...and everyone should do it to know fact from otherwise often posted bogus info on the product.
About Fountain and Cig boats not using mat...you own that opinion because you have never "seen" it. Does that mean you have visited the factories and viewed hulls being laminated...or just never "seen" it in advertising hype? I presume you consider that a credible way to find facts but I don't. Example?Pursuit boats was using plywood stringers, bulkheads, transoms, etc and advertising as "composite" stringers. Actually they were the same as glass covered wood stringers of any mfg that advertised "wood" stringers. I know that from "seeing" them laminate...in person at the factory...4 hrs watching hulls and deck laminations. That's how I use "seen it" as a credible source. Otherwise it blowing smoke. Do I have to write F and C for details or are you going to do it for a reliable source? I really don't care who is right and will succumb to begging for mercy if I am.
Nuff for me but I agree we disagree...
bp
You aren't getting it about mat and definitely have never worked with it...never. But that's right, you knock experience if it isn't yours. Anyway, anyone who has time with the stuff knows the redeeming values. A single layup of 1.5oz mat is massively stronger than a 1/4" balsa core...end grain or not. That single layup, however, is NOT as stiff as solid end grain but is more stiff than cubed endgrain. I can take a hammer and destroy 1/4" endgrain balsa in 2 seconds...it isn't easy to destroy a single 1.5oz mat layup...not even close. The balsa core layup skin will have much less punchure resistance than a solid layup with mat in between. But the reason for mat is nothing to do with cores to make stiff lightweight panels. I guarantee epoxy will peel off balsa LONG before it peels off mat...again, not even close. Had you any experience in hurricane damaged boats it would be quite clear what the differences and values are for each. Core boats skins get punchured easily compare to solid layups, period. Cores are stiff (like egg) and light but cannot take concentrated pressure point impacts (like eggs) anywhere near solid cores. Comparing balsa core VS mat for stiffness is just way off the engineering scale of reality. In high contrast to what you call cheap...core boats are the cheap way to build lightweight...because nobody wants to pay for expensive high tech materials that require labor intensive structures. That's why core boats exist. But whatever books you are reading surely aren't on frp engineering. Maybe you should try Pascoe on cores...he is dead on reality...but beware, it's based on personal experience.
Unless they have changed vendors recently the west info is a misprint about epoxy...yes it's a surprise to me and I will check it. Regardless, if I'm wrong it's human error because I didn't keep up with vendors...I quit 3 working there months ago and it was a great job after retiring from a real job. They have 50,000 products and nobody can keep up with vendor changes, not even you. Anyway, why did you not address and bring forth credible info about Bondo mat as you stated to be epoxy compatible? I suppose it's the note from 3M providing conflicting accuracy? What about the fact that in reality most vendors still do not sell epoxy compatible mat? So where did your references come from that you hold to as reliable?
Now that my fingers are warmed up...lets address another misleading statement you previously made...talk about chopper gun...you said it's weaker than mat. In reality a chopper gun application is NO different than mat. It's all in the operator's skill, otherwise they are 100% equal in strength. Mat is basically used to zero out operator error to eliminate thin spots and/or irregular laminations...and reduces labor of handlaid. Of course you know all about tracers and red catalyst so I won't go into detail how they are used to help reduce operator error. Yes, I have chopper gun experience...and done numerous test panels of both...and of woven cloths...a few balsa and pvc core materials too. How bout you? Books, message boards? Bottom line is those who think mat gives "no" strength are so wrong it isn't funny. All anyone has to do is lay up a few test panels and see for themselves...and everyone should do it to know fact from otherwise often posted bogus info on the product.
About Fountain and Cig boats not using mat...you own that opinion because you have never "seen" it. Does that mean you have visited the factories and viewed hulls being laminated...or just never "seen" it in advertising hype? I presume you consider that a credible way to find facts but I don't. Example?Pursuit boats was using plywood stringers, bulkheads, transoms, etc and advertising as "composite" stringers. Actually they were the same as glass covered wood stringers of any mfg that advertised "wood" stringers. I know that from "seeing" them laminate...in person at the factory...4 hrs watching hulls and deck laminations. That's how I use "seen it" as a credible source. Otherwise it blowing smoke. Do I have to write F and C for details or are you going to do it for a reliable source? I really don't care who is right and will succumb to begging for mercy if I am.
Nuff for me but I agree we disagree...
bp
