Pour in foam recommendations - Process

jones01m

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Does anyone feel strongly one way or the other about the process used for pour in foam?

I have read a few threads that discuss the topic. In the "How To" section there is a thread that shows boring holes in the deck after it is installed, pour the foam, and then patch up the deck. I have viewed others that pour prior to laying the deck and just trim (saw) the foam flush to the top of the stringers. Both methods appear viable and I can think of positives and negatives for each.

If you have some conviction about the topic I would appreciate the feedback. As always, thanks in advance.
 

Pmccraney

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

I don't really have a conviction either way.... My understanding is that some folks are opposed to the latter on the basis that it destroys the "closed cells" of the pour in foam, which makes it less water resistant and more apt to take in water....
 

ShellBack89

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

Jones

I like the way Friscoboater did it by putting the deck down, boring the holes and then poring it. It seems that it is more contained and less cleanup but still covering all the areas. I'll be putting foam in my restoration that way once I'm there.

MJR
 

Friscoboater

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

The problem with "sawing" the foam is that you break the closed cell properties of the foam, and that can let water in. The idea is that it fills the compartment completely and keeps it's waterproof closed cell structure. It will also bond to all surfaces and give the boat a stiffer feel. The bore, our, then lucy method to me is the most efficient way.

I used the pour method.
 

DustinJean

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

i did mine the same way as frisco its super easy to do just time consuming and wow did it make a difference on the sound of the floor walking on it once poured in and fully expanded, theres no way i would spend the time trying to trim it down without the floor being down its tougher stuff than you think and it would be very messy to try to do that also.
 

ezmobee

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

The bore, our, then lucy method to me is the most efficient way.

Someone should call and check on Jay, I think he had a stroke towards the end of this post :eek:
 

glnbnz

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

You could also use foam board insulation...that is what I am planning on doing with my build. That way if you need to go back in in the future removal of the foam is easy. Not that I plan on doing that and hopefully I won't. It is explained in more detail here: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?p=2444554&posted=1#post2444554

Just my humble opinion of course.
 

Piece715

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

Wait could it be... YAY foam!

Here is the way i went with the foam board insulation; too bad its under the deck it looked sooo pretty :D I used the blue foam insulation board from HD/Lowes. Cut it with a jig saw, hot glued together, and wedged in between stringers. Some stringer set ups are better for foam board, others for noodles, or in case of fiberglass hulls where its used for structural support pour foams. Just my 0.02 which prob isnt worth that :facepalm:
photo(5).jpg photo(4).jpg photo(2).jpg photo(3).jpg
photo.jpg
 

sschefer

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

Agree with the foam board insulation over poured in. It is easy, There is bagged closed cell foam that you fit into the space and then activate but I have no idea where to get it. Level float is a requirement for boats under 20' but may not apply for restorations. That's debateable and the USCG folks that I talked to were varied on their responses. Insurance comapanies will side with the manufacturers requirement and considered the vessel altered if it's not properly replaced. They could even go as far as to say it was not properly re-tested prior to use. They have that option in their arsenal when making the decision to pay on a claim or not. That's based on research I did a couple of years ago and I don't think it's changed much. It's what made me decide to not put mine back in and just upgrade my PFD's instead.
 

oops!

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

every one forgets that the pour in foam is actually a structural component of most hulls.

with tinnys you dont need the structure of the pour in. so you can go with the foam sheets or pool noodles..

you cant do that with a glass boat.....

most glass boats manufactured for the last 10 years have thinner hulls where the are to be foamed.....

so if a person wants to leave the foam out of a glass boat or go with foam sheets.....the now have to re glass the interior hull.

after working with as many boats as i have. seen as much hull damage as i have, i love pour in foam.
i have seen holes thru the hull so big you could crawl thru.
after i ripped the flapping fiberglass away....i could see the edge of the deck.....the front of the stringers,,,,and the foam holding it all together.....you could have still made it back to shore in that boat.

in fact....the boston whalers that are considered un sinkable.....are nothing but fiberglass encased foam.
thats it......the foam IS the boat...
 

ezmobee

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

every one forgets that the pour in foam is actually a structural component of most hulls.

You seem to be getting more absolute with this fact. It used to be "some" and now it is "most". Have you gotten some new info on the subject?
 

oops!

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

You seem to be getting more absolute with this fact. It used to be "some" and now it is "most". Have you gotten some new info on the subject?

Yes. With investigation, I have found new information.

As building methods change, the structural use of foam has become more and more common place.
here is a brief history.

In the 60s the boat hulls were made so thick that you didnt need foam.....but the builders threw chunks of it in....even Styrofoam for floatation.

In the 70's USCG ruled that each pleasure boat under 25 feet had to be foamed.
This really ticked builders off.....the foam was expensive.....and did nothing for sales.....just an added cost.
so they used only as much foam as necessary for flotation.

In the 80's corporate demands for profit required a new approach for cost cutting.
In the mean time, closed cell pour in foam became a far stronger product. this was due to different chemicals added to the foam to create the closed cells. more structural rigidity was a by product due to the dome shape of the bubble walls of the foam.
(as we know, a dome is a very strong architectural shape. ad closed cell foam is made up of a bazillion domes)

early 80's
bayliner revolutionized the industry, by making the hull thinner any where foam was added. the actually relied on the foam to re enforce the structure of the hull.
this process, cost less money in resin and fiberglass and resin. decreased labour and less overall weight. a win-win solution to the foam costing money dis advantage to the builders.

mid 80's
bayliner starts getting warranty on hulls penetrated due to thin fiberglassed hulls.
it was discovered that the floatation foam was preventing water intrusion in a penetration situation. the foam would get wet....but the boat would not fill. thus, the owners for the most part. never even knew that the hull had been penetrated, and ran the boat for a few seasons with a big hole in the hull.

90's
most major manufactures switch to bayliners production methods to conserve costs.

2000's
virtually all manufacturers use the "bayliner" production technique very few exceptions.
Kals custom (a division of rinell) but rinell uses the new method.
chris craft pleasure boats. under 25 feet.

even the four winns have switched.

this information was researched by myself by talking to most of the manufacturers. including Rinell, Regal, Searay, Bayliner, Campion, and people that worked on the line of Svfarah. as well as talking to several long time boat industry sales reps, as well as several fiberglass resin and gellcoat manufactures.

MY own experiences with foam (I hate digging out the water logged stuff :mad:) have led me to the same conclusions as the engineers at bayliner when they discovered the significance of the use of pour in foam.

one interesting note.....

on the thinner hulled boats...waterlogged foam created "dents" in the hulls of boats that were stored on roller trailers.
this is one of the major reasons that the early 80's saw the switch to "bunk"style trailers.
again, the cost of manufacturing a bunk trailer was lower than a roller. so again, the new style was a win-win for everyone.

side note part 2....
cocky sales reps for the dealer ships (frustrated with the time it took to show a new boat owner how to float on float off) found a new way to load a boat on to a bunk trailer.....it was called "power loading"
 

bob johnson

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

is it common knowledge that ALL of the 2 part pour in foam will absorb water once it penetrates the outer Skin that hardened over when it set?

I can follow along with the aspect that those pour in foams do have a skin that forms that is different than the inside of the foam...

. it seems to me that once you accept the fact that pour in foam absorbs water...you would NEVER RE-install it in any boat you spent your blood and sweat tearing down and restoring.

I wonder how much strength the pour in foam has to disrupt structure...like Great stuff does to a window sill or door frame!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a3 year old boat, that some how some way has gained about 400 lbs since new....

thats another of this summers project.. tear out the Center console, and pull up the floor... and check


bob
 

oops!

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

i would be leary of the mixing capabilities of the cheaper versions of that tool.

they are made for home applications....the two part closed cell we use is a different animal
 

glnbnz

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

You could also use foam board insulation...that is what I am planning on doing with my build. That way if you need to go back in in the future removal of the foam is easy. Not that I plan on doing that and hopefully I won't. It is explained in more detail here: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?p=2444554&posted=1#post2444554

Just my humble opinion of course.

Just to be clear on my build. It is a 1973 Ozark T164 and when I removed the deck there was no foam. So I am assuming that my boat has a strong enough hull to go without foam. I am going to add the foam board insulation for some peace of mind.
 

Piece715

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

Good info Oops! I knew with fiberglass hulls they gained structural integrity from foam but the history was interesting. Good thing i have a tinny :D
 

jones01m

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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

Great responses guys. I very much appreciate all the input. So after reading all of the responses I came home ran a couple of quick experiments to hopefully add a bit to the discussion too.

One of my concerns when placing down the deck is screwing into the strings so I decided I wont do it. I embedded some 1x3 pvc exterior trim boards into my first pour of foam to facilitate screwing down the deck. Using these boards I segregated the stern portion of the hull into 3 sections.

Then I ran an experiment

1) drilled two 1" holes in 3/4 ply and covered the back side with wax paper.
2) mixed the 4lb poly foam and poured it all over one section then covered the section with the board and stood on it for 10 minutes let cure (Hey a guy needs a short break after work). Then removed board and wax paper.
3) screwed down the same board to the second section rather than standing on it and let cure for 40 minutes. Then removed board and wax paper.

Results

The foam filled the section volume about the same using either the pour prior to board installation, or pouring after board installation. Both sections swelled approxiamate 1/16" to 1/8" above the constrained volume after baord removal.

Thoughts

I think drilling holes into the deck after installation and pouring the foam afterward will give me the results I am looking for. I believe this method will prestress both the hull and the deck for a long term stiff structure. The ability of the foam to fill the complete volume was impressive and I do not believe the force exerted by the foam is too great. I do think that trailering the boat and impacting large waves will break the bond of the hull to the foam over time, simply becuase the foam does dent on the surface when lightly impacted. It is rated and 90psi compressive strength.

By the way it is an extremely easy process to remove the foam from this experiment by using the 4" grinder with coarse paper - almost too easy.


1 Pour and stand on left. 2 Mount board and pour in center
IMG_0167.jpg


Forstner bit to drill out hardened foam
IMG_0168.jpg


Final results - looks good
IMG_0169.jpg
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
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Re: Pour in foam recommendations - Process

I do think that trailering the boat and impacting large waves will break the bond of the hull to the foam over time, simply becuase the foam does dent on the surface when lightly impacted. It is rated and 90psi compressive strength.

nope it wont.......did a 87 b liner that whacked the rocks bad....

i pulled the deck.....the hull penetration caused water logging.....

even the wet carp at the fracture was still attached to the hull somewhat......the foam really sticks !

as far as the compressive stregnth of the foam.....it is quadrupled when applied to a sub straight,

the substraight will cause the point load to disperse,,,,,so a one inch point load will be spread out over 9 squair inches minimum.
so when they mean 90 lbs......it will actually be a lot more in our application
 
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