On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

[SCO]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

BTW Plywoody, I also agree with your statements about truth, belief etc. above. I don't think this war is primarily about right /wrong truth or belief, but survival. I can understand one thing though. Their will to resist and even their beliefs are directly related to their fear factor(aka pucker factor). If they realize that we are stronger they will back down. If they see our weakness, our division, they will buck up because they know if we do not support Bush and support Kerry, they will win. UBL, Saddam etc who called us paper tigers will have been proven to be right. Do you think our enemies will advance or withdraw their hostile efforts in that case(if Kerry wins)? Left to their own devices, the liberals will take us down a road with only one option...the all out war and nuclear option. When ??? I don't know...surely within our lifetimes. How Kenedy can attack our President at a time like this is...well it's not beyond me since I know what character he possesses (Ref: Chapaquiddic sp). That kind of reckless talk by our "leaders" cost lives, could cost the war. Outrageous. Does anyone recall how Kenedy came down on Iraq when Clinton was in office?

 

[rolmops]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Hello Carphunter.<br />According to vice president Richard Cheney Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 or el kaida.In fact there was an agreement between Iraq and el kaida to stay away from each other.sadam's Iraq was seen in the islamic world as a secular state.<br />All that however does not solve todays problems.<br />In moslem eyes America has shown great weakness on the day these four men were lynched.Mostly because we did not respond by turning part of their town into a parking lot.Because that is what sadam or for that matter any other arab leader would have done.We are dealing with the sort of culture that understands violence and its uses very well.You give them one finger and they will try to tear your arm off. Hafaz El Assad of Syria had a simular problem in the city of Homs in Syria.He had the city surrounded and bombarded the revolting neighborhoods with heavy artillery.35000 syrians died there.Next he leveled these neighborhoods including mosques and dead bodies and turned the whole thing into a tourist site complete with parking lots so everybody had easy access to the site.There have not been any problems with Syrian fundamentalists since...<br />In order to succesfully fight these ennemies we have to be able to think like them so we can pre-empt them and make them react to us instead of us reacting to them

 

[SCO]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Isn't that the truth Rolmops. We give them a limp wristed slap and "talking down to" by comparison. I do think we are going to mount a serious campaign though...it just hasn't started yet.

 

[plywoody]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

I do get confused with all of these arguments.<br />We seem to be advocating a ruthless brutal response by us to our political enemies in Iraq, and yet most adopt the argument that since Saddam practiced a ruthless brutal response to his political enemies, that alone was reason enough to take him out.<br /><br />Something does not compute.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

hello<br /> well I have to step in again. on the 4 terrorists that were lynched. I have been to the terror camp in blackwater. I live maybe 40 miles from it. those are mercenaries. they operate outside any known rules of engagement. they are terrorists plain and simple. the fact they speak english and not arabic is beside the point. I dont know why the press here keeps refering to them as "contractors" and "security " personell. they are paid mercenaries and as such have no protection under any conventions and if captured they have no rights as a prisoner. they can also be sumarily executed as spies. I dont like what happened to them. its a terrible thing. however if we had muslims cruising about new york in SUV's with guns we may do the same to them.<br /> I read a news article that apearently we now have the largest private army in ther known world in Iraq now. some are Iraqi,english,spainish as well as from america. all are mecenary, not "contractor". power line contractors dont bill 600 dollars a day and carry weapons and have back up helicopters and such.<br /> Its all a terrible mess just cause someone wanted to experment with limited warfare. we have less than 150,000 troops trying to control a population of over 25 million. we are severly out numbered. throughout history it has been proven that to conquer you must occupy. if you cannot occupy you will lose. even Alexander the great learned that one the hard way.<br /> the problem is we are in their homes so we really dont wish to occupy. that place is nasty. any way enough rant time to fix boats <br /> good luck and say a prayer for those that cannot be here.

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Thanks for the replies everybody.<br /><br />BOOMYAL Don't have CNN. Watch Jim Lehrer News Hour every evening.You familiar with him? Good show. Covers the Arts to.Watch DW News (German International) Very informative.<br />The UN is a paper tiger, useless. Why not change it, or dismantle it and form another similar type organisation? Arguments for and against are endless, but a strong effective UN is needed: someone has to lead the change; it's not going to be a small insignificant country.<br /> <br />18RABBIT. I am a little concerned about China. I am pleased you raised it. I have been wanting to discuss it for some time, but now is not the right time.<br /><br />SCO. Appreciate your point of view.I don't believe Iraq was ever a necessary phase of the war against terrorism. Agree that it is nigh impossible to pull out now, especially after past week. <br />Not sure how it is going to be done, but that country has to be stabalized or it is going to be a real big problem for everyone. <br />Havn't a good thought about Saddam, but credit where it is due, he at least kept those fanatics in line for decades, even if it was with a copperclad between the eyes.<br /><br />CARPHUNTER. No offence taken. It would be good to see a peaceful democracy there. Personally, to achieve that, the country may have to be split up along tribal/secterial lines.<br /><br />RODBOLT. Last night we had a documentary on the "Contractors". A 1 hr program. Staggered me. Big savings for your Govt tho.<br />Work to do....<br />Thanks again everyone.<br />Cheers<br />Phillip

 

[18rabbit]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Phil – Lehrer is either a communist or a communist-wannabe. I watch DW News, too. Actually, the DW channel has better coverage of the arts, as well. I also watch Rai 1, the Italian news…has better coverage of the mid-east issues. BBC is worth monitoring. But the best news sources are internet based.<br /><br />www.DrudgeReport.com<br />www.WorldNetDaily.com<br />www.NewsMax.com

 

[samagee]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Here is some more information on how nuts these people are.<br /><br /> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37944

 

[rolmops]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Rodbolt<br />What you call mercenaries are often ex soldiers.<br />It is a new policy of the army to outsource security in order to free up soldiers for combat.<br />they say it saves money.<br />I mentioned this policy a few months back in a thread and in this thread there is a response of an army officer defending the policy(obviously this army guy was logistics not combat)<br />Now we see the results.

 

[SCO]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Lets just not panic and wait and see. If this is truely a popular revolt, weve got problems. THe media reports it that way. Give 100 Plywoodys microphones and that's what you'll get( no offence Ply).It's just their perspective. It also could be that the broad majority wants us to keep these warlords tamped down. I have heard that what the Iraquis want is 1: end of occupation, 2 :for Americans to stay . Not contradictory. They want control of government but realize that if we leave too soon, the country will revert back to the warlords. We're going to give them that. You would expect these last desperate screams from the enemy as the date to their loss of power looms.

 

[12Footer]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

Originally posted by plywoody:<br />While I agree with that for the most part, I am afraid it is not that simple.<br />Their followers *believe* what those clerics are saying, and not likely to have an epiphany once they are thrown in jail.<br /><br />That is the problem, of course, with religious and cultural wars, in that they are based on "beliefs" and not any sort of logic. And it is impossible to get agreement on what is "good" vs what is "evil"<br /><br />Imagine what you would do and feel if the religious leaders you look up to and follow were being attacked and killed or arrested by some outside force. While you may or may not take up arms and fight directly, it is not likely you are going to come around to the other's point of view any time soon.<br /><br />And what is "truth" to you is certainly not what is "truth" to them, and unfortunately there is no accepted ultimate arbiter of what exactly is "truth".

And that's the truth.

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

In my first post I was just trying to say that if the clerics who are advocating violence against coalition forces all dissappeared, who would be left to stir up opposition? Part of winning the hearts and minds of Iraq would be to silence the opposition that will NEVER do anything but advocate the destruction of all western civilization. And I think the average Iraqi on the streets would welcome the dissapperance of the rebal rousers just so they could get on with rebuilding Iraq. Those folks have got to be tired of the fighting.

 

[WoodRust]

Re: On the News, The Stuff hit the fan

On the News!<br /><br />Today Sunday April 11, 2004 ->Welcome to Vietnam 2<br /><br />London Daily Telegraph quoted a senior British Comander in Iraq..<br /><br />-> The officer, who agreed to the interview on the condition of anonymity, said that part of the problem was that American troops viewed Iraqis as untermenschen - the Nazi expression for "sub-humans".<br /><br />->The US will have to abandon the sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut approach - it has failed," he said. "They need to stop viewing every Iraqi, every Arab as the enemy and attempt to win the hearts and minds of the people.<br /><br />->"Our objective is to create a stable, democratic and safe Iraq. That's achievable but not in the short term. It is going to take up to 10 years."