no steering at high speed!!

riptorn

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 8, 2012
Messages
433
Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

I am glad to hear your happy ending. Good for you and happy boating.:)
 

NSBCraig

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
1,907
Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

thanks for posting
 

jdlough

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
824
Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Someone on another thread pointed out that although Teleflex compares the Xtreme steering to their 4.2 helm, they never actually say what the Xtreme lock-to-lock number is. For me, it's about 5.5.

I thought the "30% reduction in steering wheel effort compared to the 4.2 helm" was because of the new "Xtreme" technology, not just a simple change in gear ratio.

If I knew this, I would have just bought the 4.2 or Safe-T II NFB non-Xtreme steering and saved over $100.
 

jdlough

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
824
Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

I just called Teleflex tech support to ask them how many turns lock-to-lock the Xtreme was supposed to be.

He told me that it's "It's approximately 5 turns, but it's not an exact science. It depends on the diameter of your steering wheel."

He did not understand why I insisted that that made no sense.:facepalm:
It IS an "exact science" and the diameter of the steering wheel is irrelevant to the number of turns it can make lock-to-lock.

This was not a salesman - it was their mechanical steering tech guy.
 

64osby

Admiral
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Messages
6,826
Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Certainly not the steering wheel,

but there could be variation in the degrees a motor will turn which would effect the wheels number of turns.

The only other factor would be a limit in the travel of the cable if it were less than the amount of travel of the outboard
 

jdlough

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
824
Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Yep, I totally agree. If the motor itself were somehow blocked and couldn't make a full turn, then the lock-to-lock would be less.

Which is why I asked the Teleflex tech, "Suppose I don't attached the cable to the outboard. How many turns lock-to-lock is the Xtreme?"

He tells me it's not an exact science and depends on the wheel, etc....


So I ask, "You advertise QuickConnect steering with 3.0 turns, and NFB with 4.2 turns, so what is the new Xtreme?"

He again asks me what's the diameter of my steering wheel, and tells me I'd like the new Xtreme, cuz it feels just like hydraulic.



I took the boat out again today to check the steering on a nice, glassy flat day.

5.5 turns lock-to-lock is ridiculous.

For any docking maneuvers, or poking around in the shallows, it's annoying. I feel like Gilligan, spinning the wheel.
 

NSBCraig

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
1,907
Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

WHAT???

The diameter of the wheel? That's just dumb.
5 turns of a 12" wheel is the same as 5 turns of a 16" wheel :facepalm:

Man I'm sorry to hear your unhappy with it, I was thinking of upgrading to it later this year. Now I'm thinking I'll pass.
 

64osby

Admiral
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Messages
6,826
Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Installed mine today, in the driveway I have 5.25 turns lock to lock, my old system was 2.75. No water test yet.
 

louiefl

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
119
Re: Steering Trouble on a 94' Starcraft

Re: Steering Trouble on a 94' Starcraft

The advice above is good, if the motor pivots easily, then you have a problem in either the cable or the helm. The helm is the gearbox that the steering wheel bolts to. There are two types - a rack style or rotary. Rotaries are more common on outboards, it should be a round metal casting under the dashboard.

First - stop using the boat - if the effort is really high, a bad cable can result in you breaking a tooth off in the helm and then you'll need one of those too.

Try a few "free" fixes before you start throwing parts at it. Trim up the motor and you should see a greease fitting on the port side. This is not the two fittings on the tilt tube (wouldn't hurt to grease those too). As you pump grease in it, the old stuff should come out the top or bottom of the motor pivot.

Next, look at the routing of the cable - if there are tight bends, then they will be harder to turn over time. Look at the bend from the engine forward and from the helm over and down. Sometimes use and vibration will push the cable forward or aft resulting in tigh bends. Make sure nothing is tie-wrapped or attached to the cable and it can move freely.

There are 3 places where steering can get stuck:
1. Helm – if you disconnect the cable, the steering wheel should spin easily in either direction without limits
2. Engine – with the cable disconnected back here, the motor should pivot freely.
3. Cable – if it is not the engine or helm, then it is the cable.

To remove only the cable:
At the engine:

• Unbolt the arm from the shiny tube on the port side of the engine. It should be a nylock nut and a couple washers. Once the nut is off, you should be able to wiggle the threaded rod out of the tube.
• On the starboard side of the engine, the cable is secured with a large nut, loosen this completely.
• Do not loosen the remaining two nuts on the tilt tube – these are what hold the engine to the tilt tube.
• If the tilt tube is in line with the rigging hole in the side of the transom, you should be able to pull the cable straight back. If not, you need to lift the engine:
o No need to disconnect any of the gas lines, controls or wires – they will move with the engine.
o Park under a tree with a stout branch that can handle 300 lbs of weight (have a couple friends hang from it). Hook a come-along wire winch ($15 at Harbor Freight) to the lifting eye at the engine and another over the branch. Take the slack out of the cable. Make sure the cable is straight up and down.
o Make a note of which of the holes the engine is using so you can set the height the same afterwards.
o Remove the 4 nuts off the engine mounting bolts and push the upper two bolts into the transom so they are flush.
o Lift the engine a couple inches until you can pivot it away from the transom – just enough to align the tilt tube with the rigging hole.
o Pull the steering cable straight out and set the engine back on the transom, temporarily bolting it in place.

At the helm:
• There are two places on the starboard side of the helm to attach cables – make sure you note which one the cable comes out of. The other one is a spent cable tube that protects the excess cable.
• The cables are held in place with either no screws, one screw, or two screws. If one of these does not have a screw, there should be a bent pin alongside the cable. Pull that pin out and use it to push down in a hole where the cable enters the helm while pulling on the cable. It should pop right out. Remove the screw(s) on the other tube.
• Unwind the steering wheel to remove the cable.
Removing the cable from the boat:
• You need to tie a strong line around the helm side of the cable and tape it in place with electrical tape.
• Pull the cable out from front towards the rear.
• Leave the line in place – you will use this to re-install the new cable.
Getting the right cable:
• About 2’ from the helm side there should be a stamped part number filled in with white paint. It should say “Teleflex” or “Uflex” and then have a part number. If it is Teleflex, most will start with a SSC number and end with the cable length – SSC6115 is a 15’ cable.
• If you cannot read the serial number, measure only the black outer housing, add 18”, and round up to the next higher foot. If your black cable measures 11’, add 18” (12’6”) and round up to the nearest foot (13’). You would need to get a 13’ cable.
• If the cable is up to about 18” too long, you can make it work; too short and all the wishing in the world isn’t going to help.
Installing the cable:
• Start at the engine side, feed the helm side of the cable through the rigging hole in the transom and tie the cable to the line you left behind. Have one person push the cable and another gently pull the line. If it gets stuck pull the cable out slightly and try again.
• Eventually the cable end will be visible at the helm and you can grab it and pull it up. Untie the line.
• Feed the cable into the helm (do you remember which hole it came out of?) and start turning the wheel – it will start taking up the slack and eventually the black housing will enter the helm.
• If there were no bolts holding it in place, the housing should click and lock into place, otherwise secure with screws. Attach the spent cable tube to the other hole.
• This is probably a good time to clean the inside of the tilt tube. You can ball up a piece of scotchbrite pad and push it through the tube with a plastic hanger – back and forth a few times. Then repeat with some paper towels and a lump of grease.
• At the engine, you need to grease the end of the steering ram and insert into the tilt tube. If you had to lift the engine to get it out, you’ll need to lift it to get it back in.
• Tighten the nut on the end of the cable to the engine.
• Once in, immediately set it back on the transom. Seal where the bolts pass through the transom with 4200 sealant / adhesive and tighten the engine bolts to the transom.
• Reconnect the threaded rod (you might have to rotate the cable with a flat wrench so the hole lines up with the bolt, but should spin easily).

Pretty simple, should take about an hour if you have everything you need.

If you also want to change the helm (the metal thingy under the steering wheel), now would be a good time while you have everything apart.
Removing steering wheel:

• There should be a protective cover on the hub and often a small set screw holding it in place. Remove this.
• Remove the nylock nut and washer at the center of the steering wheel.
• The wheel bore fits over a tapered shaft. Spray a little PB Blaster on it and then gently tap on the back side with a rubber mallet while someone else is lifting. Rotate the wheel and repeat. If it is super corroded, you might need a steering wheel puller, but not likely. You can also put the nut back on ? of the way, put a socket over the nut, and hit it a couple times while someone else pulls up on the wheel.
• Once the wheel comes off, a small metal half-moon key will fall out.
• The trim ring is held on by 2 screws, remove this and the trim ring.
• There are 3 screws that hold a bracket to the console, and 3 screws that hold the helm to the bracket. Most kits give you a new bracket, so unbolt the helm first, remove it, and then the 3 bolts holding the bracket. Mine were rusted and ended up twisting the head off one. The kits come with all the new hardware.
• Assembly is reverse.

There are 2 types of rotary helms – traditional or No Feedback (NFB). The NFB design is great because it locks the steering so it does not pull the wheel when you let go. Costs a few bucks extra, but worth it. I also went from the regular 3 turns lock to lock to their 4.2 (actually 5 turns) lock to lock. Less effort and better feel on center.

Assuming you have rotary steering, I would recommend getting the NFB 4.2 instead of the Safe-T II system from Teleflex. Everything you need is in the kit: cable, helm, trim ring, all bolts and hardware including steering wheel nut and key. It is part number SS147xx where the XX is the length of the cable. They run about $200 for the kit and about $100 for just the cable.
 
Last edited:

jdlough

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
824
Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Re: Teleflex Xtreme Mechanical Steering install

Just to update....

I've been using the Teleflex Xtreme steering for almost 2 months now, and it turns out that the 5.5 turns lock-to-lock really is not a big deal.
I'm pretty much used to it.

As a matter of fact, a slight turn of the wheel at WOT only makes a slight turn, so it makes it a bit easier to fine tune a straight direction. I can sort of 'lock on' to a point on the horizon, when I want to cruise a long distance in a straight line.

So, like everything in boating, there are compromises. At idle speed when I need to maneuver the boat around a lot, I need to spin the wheel a lot. At cruising speed, precise course corrections are easier.

The steering wheel play is reduced to about 1/2". It's easy to turn the wheel, and every thing feels solid and precise.

I love the no-feedback. Whether you get the Xtreme, or the regular Teleflex No-Feedback, I totally recommend it.
 

cotaone

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
33
Re: How can you remove the steering cable without removing the motor?

Re: How can you remove the steering cable without removing the motor?

Looks like Louiefl was right about the cable being shot. What I wound up doing is late yesterday afternoon I drilled three 1/8 inch holes in the flats of the big steering cable nut (the chrome nut ). I then filled those holes with Blaster PB and let it sit overnight. This morning, I put my vice grips on that big old nut and had to hit the vice grips with my hammer, but it loosened the nut. After a couple of raps with the hammer on the vice grips, I was able to loosen the nut the rest of the way without the hammer. I did have to take a small drywall handsaw and cut out a little bit in the splashwell for room, but the steering ram came all the way out easily. Didn't even have to tap the end of it with the hammer. Slid right out. Then I took a 12 gauge shotgun cleaning kit and cleaned out the tilt tube with the wire brush. There was nothing in it. The tilt tube was clean as a whistle. I was fully expecting a clog or something that was keeping the steering cable from working. Well, I went to the helm and took the rack (rack and pinion steering on my boat), off, and the rack gears wont slide at all. Even with the steering cable disconnected , the steering wheel would NOT turn and move the steering cable at all. So now I know where the problem is, and if there's no way to repair the helm end of the cable at the rack, then I will have to buy a new steering cable. But I did learn a few things, including the answer to my original question, which was is there any way to remove a steering cable from the motor without taking the motor off? YES! Thanks for all the help guys, and your wonderful ideas. I learned how to do a few things I didn't know how before, and was able to learn a lot from you all.
 

IllesheimVet

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
90
Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

You can use MIL 5606-H aviation hydraulic fluid. Costs around $7.00 a quart. Also recommended by teleflex. Personally, I wouldn't use vegetable oil as it may not contain anti-wear or anti-corrosion additives as 5606 does.
 

rallyart

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
1,180
Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Canola/Rapeseed oil is not the same as hydraulic fluid. It's a bit closer to synthetic oil but not the same as that also. If you open hydraulic fluid or engine oil it will still be effective a couple years from now. If you open your Mazola it will be rancid in a year.
I'm normally all for trying different products but I don't think I'd use cooking oil instead of hydraulic fluid. If you do, the worst case would be replacing all the lines and components if they corrode, so it's not the end of the world, unless you need to steer better than a ferry.
 

rallyart

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
1,180
Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Maybe to give more clarity to my last post, Canola Oil based biodegradable oils exist for use in hydraulic systems but without significant additives they will oxidize quickly, not work at low temperatures well, and create significant wear problems. It's not a problem to use these specialty products but it is likely to be a problem using straight vegetable oil.
You need to change most biodegradable lubricants sooner than others.
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Is your buddy with all the great information going to pay for the repairs if it doesn't work ???????
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Now when i compare a bottle of quicksilver steering/trim fluid to vegetable oil, i cannot
see or feel much difference.
The viscosity seems about the same as does the colour of the stuff.

Just thought about this part of your post. First of all, the Quicksilver steering and trim fluid is motor oil. Teleflex does not use motor oil, some used to use ATF, but even ATF was too thick and would cause the steering to be stiff in some cases.

Teleflex oil is thin, and if you want your steering to work, use the Teleflex oil. If you want to make a salad, use vegetable oil.
 

phillnjack2

Ensign
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
918
Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

well when reading the ingriedients of the steering hydraulic fluid, rapeseed oil is the base material when
used in the marine enviroment.
It is not the same as automatic transmission hydraulic fluid and not the same as brake hydraulic fluid.
Now it seems than many tractors on farmland have switched to using a rapeseed oil as the fluid due to
being biodegradable.
When you look at the seastar steering fluid that is also biodegradable,unlike automatic transmission fluid.
Now it also seems that seastar uses the rapeseed/vegetabal oil /canola as its base material for the fluid.
Quicksilver dont like to divulge their ingriedients but that is also biodegradable and not only looks but
feels and smells like vegetable oil.
Now vegetable oil is not going to be open to the elements in one year,it would be in a sealed enviroment.
Hydraulic oil would be no good in 1 year if left open as it would of absorbed a lot of moisture and also be a bit smelly.
Now im not talking about using oil thats been used to cook my chips or bacon sandwiches,im talking new oil
straight from the drum.
The same stuff a lot of people are now running the older cars on and not having any problems at all.

I do know that the green cheap hydraulic oil has a petroleum base and not any good as it can destroy the
rubber seals in the steering system.
This stuff is mainly used on tipper rams and heavy industrial machinery.
The red stuff can be either petrol,veggy,or synthetic based.
In hospital beds that are hydraulically operated, they use vegetable oil in the hydraulics, also for many disabled
hydraulic appliances .
I am trying to find out if the stuff has anything that can destroy the seals,but nobody seems to want to say
exactly what the seals are made of and what can happen to them with just vegetable oil with no additives is used.
Vegetable oil will not attack stainless steel or mild steel or alliminium.

i just found these statements on the net about it.......


You can use rapeseed oil as a lubricant for sheet metal production, for machines operating at high temperatures
and mud drillers. Rapeseed oil does not oxidize easily and you can modify its free fatty acid content, degree of lubricity,
viscosity, solubility, reactivity and gravity.
References:
Seatons: Seatons Products for Use in Lubricants
.........................................................................


im finding that many of todays hydraulic oil suppliers are bragging about using rapeseed or canola as
the base for their fluids.
The majority of hydraulic retailers seem to be saying that rapeseed/canola is the base and not so many saying petroleum
apart from the petroleum companies ofcourse.
It seems it withstands greater temperatures and its viscosity can be ideal for the hydraulic uses over a vast temp range.
It was used as a lubricant for steam engines and is good for lubricating against water ingress.


so now im not so sure if this aint going to be a good oil for my steering.

ill keep trying to find info


phill
 

IllesheimVet

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
90
Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

I believe the o-rings are Nitrile and not natural rubber. 5606 is not compatible with natural rubber, according to the bottle. What is the cost of this vegetable oil? My system holds less than a quart of fluid. If some were to leak , I doubt it would be an environmental disaster. Guess I just don't see the problem with using Seastar fluid (expensive) or 5606 (inexpensive).
 

rallyart

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
1,180
Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Whoever told you that vegetable oil is good over a wider range of temperatures than mineral oil is incorrect. It gets thick when cold.
Also, a 'base' of canola oil is not the same as canola oil.
Good luck.
 

phillnjack2

Ensign
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
918
Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

Re: Hydraulic steering fluid v vegetable oil in steering.

viscosity is pretty similar unless of you want to go boating in the freezing winter ofcourse.
But all oils are thicker during freezing temps unless we go for special low temp oil.
Diesel engine oil gets much thicker in the winter but obviously warms up once the engine is running.
the power steering pump in a car also warms the fluid due to the speed of the vanes in the pump.

so yes i can see there could be a low temp problem with the veg oil, unless certain additives were placed in with the oil.

Now the quicksilver trim and steering fluid !!!!!
This fluid is supposed to be also good for steering systems, not just power steering but hydraulic as well.
Now i dont know the breakdown of the stuff but its a clear fluid unlike automatic transmission fluid that is normally red.
The quicksilver fluid is also thinner than the red stuff.

Now in the uk we dont seem to see much of the seastar oil in our boat shops, and from what i have seen it
looks like i might be needing about 3 bottles of the stuff due to having a powerfull helm unit and not the cheapo small one.
now to fill this would cost in the region of ?15 per litre thats $25 us per bottle x 3 =$75 or ?45 just to check
the system for leaks.

this is why i asked if the veg oil would work.
But it seems there could be problems with seals etc so will now have to look around for the stuff.
when i do get it i might get a friend in a college to ask his lab teacher to find out what is in the stuff,coz im
pretty sure this aint petroleum based oil at all.

in the states like most things the proper stuff is very cheap, in the uk we pay much higher prices on
everything due to big taxes.


phill
 
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