New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours - UPDATE

[stancel]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Yep, your motor definitely needs attention. You are using much too much oil, and probably way too much fuel. Way too rich. Could be an ECU or injector issue, but impossible to say without running diagnostics. Get ye to a dealer as soon as reasonable.

Boat is currently at the ER awaiting surgery.

Video of motor running at idle speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANEovgfFNrQ&feature=youtu.be

After today's trip, I did a very precise fuel/oil measurement and it is running about 45:1. I am also posting a picture of my spark plug. I replaced them at about 10 hours, and it has a little over 14 on it now, so they have a little over 4 hours run time on them. This is one plug, but they all look the same.

 

[stancel]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

I am editing this for the moment. I talked to Keith at Tohatsu and he tells me the two best mechanics at that shop have been over in Texas training all week. They are back and he will be speaking with them about the motor. I will be patient and wait until I hear from Keith on Monday before loosing it completely.

 

[pdgs]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Well guys, just talked to the repair shop again, and they are saying there is nothing wrong with the motor. I told them it was burning more than 50:1 ratio of gas to oil and the prop nut and plugs are solid black after only a couple hours of run time. Their response was that it burns whatever oil it needs to burn, and It is normal for the plugs to turn black on one side. Also said it did miss a little when idled all the way down, but that is normal (see video link in my above post to see it run).

This is a joke. Words can't describe how disappointed I am in this motor and the repair shop that Tohatsu claims is the best in the area. I have wasted 5 weeks with this thing sitting in a repair center, 720 miles on my truck, and over $150 in gas running back and forth to have it worked on.

HORRIBLE!!! That's all I can say about this motor and the service I am getting.

Has anyone even looked at the air pump? Find yourself a Merc OptiMax mechanic, he'll take one look and tell you what it is.

 

[stancel]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Has anyone even looked at the air pump? Find yourself a Merc OptiMax mechanic, he'll take one look and tell you what it is.

It is under warranty so I have to bring it to a Tohatsu repair center. Paying for somebody else to look at a brand new motor that is under warranty isn't really an option.

Edit:
Another call from the repair shop. They said they spent over an hour running the motor in the water and it is perfect. The only thing they did is clean the injectors. All the things like black plugs after a few hours of run time, the brass prop nut being solid black, and the missing at low idle is "NORMAL". That is what the head mechanic at the dealership is saying.

Please, if somebody who knows these motors looks at the spark plug pictures in the above post, and watches/listens to video of it running and thinks I am mistaken, please tell me. Is what I am experiencing "normal"?

Video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANEovgfFNrQ&feature=plcp

At any rate, the two guys from that dealership who were at Tohatsu for training will look at it Monday I guess. What a mess.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

No, it is not normal. As to what the problem might actually be:

A N Y T H I N G

The engine diagnostic system will troubleshoot the thing. However, the interpretation of the readings requires that the technician look at the codes. I really do not believe that anyone at the dealership has actually taken the time to run through it as it takes time. Generally some half assed mechanic wanna be skips the diagnostic and starts using WAG. That is a mistake on a modern engine. You are going to half to wait for the Moogs to look at it....And if they cannot find the problem, call Tohatsu and get the name of the next closest wanna be and take it to him. This really sucks for you, but there is no short cut on this stuff.

 

[stancel]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

My understanding is that they did run a diagnostic on the motor and didn't get any codes. I am inclined to believe them because I bought a service manual and have run the diagnostics several times and have never gotten any trouble codes.

At this point I am hoping that cleaning the injectors and the rest of the fuel system, which is what I am told they did, cleared up the problem. That is a shot in the dark, but after saving up for 3 years to buy this thing, I just want it back and running right.

When I dropped it off and talked to the manager of the store (Steve), his first thought was that the motor had a bad ECU (computer) as he had seen something similar in the past with a 90 TLDI. That would seem to make sense with the motor running so bad and never registering any fault codes, but that is just a guess. But, my luck being what it is, Steve was at Tohatsu training in Texas all last week. Maybe I can convince Steve to put a new ECU on the motor, which is what he originally said he was going to try and get Tohatsu to do.

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

My understanding is that they did run a diagnostic on the motor and didn't get any codes. I am inclined to believe them because I bought a service manual and have run the diagnostics several times and have never gotten any trouble codes.

At this point I am hoping that cleaning the injectors and the rest of the fuel system, which is what I am told they did, cleared up the problem. That is a shot in the dark, but after saving up for 3 years to buy this thing, I just want it back and running right.

When I dropped it off and talked to the manager of the store (Steve), his first thought was that the motor had a bad ECU (computer) as he had seen something similar in the past with a 90 TLDI. That would seem to make sense with the motor running so bad and never registering any fault codes, but that is just a guess. But, my luck being what it is, Steve was at Tohatsu training in Texas all last week. Maybe I can convince Steve to put a new ECU on the motor, which is what he originally said he was going to try and get Tohatsu to do.

I sincerely hope you get this fixed asap. NOTHING is more frustrating than a brand new ANYTHING that doesn't work right and when you take it to someone they say it works fine. I like simple, which is why I'm happy with my 1993 28hp engine which has nothing more complex on it than a charging circuit.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

I'll ask Kieth to let him borrow an ECU, but, it is more likely that a dirty or water infused injector would be correct.

Word to the wise:

Most dealer techs, regardless of brand, begin to think that they can skip tests because "the problem is always X". And while they are correct that it is "usually X", they often get caught up in their lie about doing the tests to begin with I'm not saying this is the case here...I'm saying it happens a lot

 

[stancel]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

I'll ask Kieth to let him borrow an ECU, but, it is more likely that a dirty or water infused injector would be correct.

Word to the wise:

Most dealer techs, regardless of brand, begin to think that they can skip tests because "the problem is always X". And while they are correct that it is "usually X", they often get caught up in their lie about doing the tests to begin with I'm not saying this is the case here...I'm saying it happens a lot

I do want to tell you again how much I appreciate your input on this ordeal. You are certainly going above and beyond.

I am not sure how much it would help to get a loaner ECU though. The mechanic is saying it is running perfect, so he would probably just say it didn't make any difference and they would keep my boat another week or two for no reason. Maybe (hopefully) it was indeed a problem with the injectors.

 

[J@mes]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Hi guys,

Sorry to but in stancel :facepalm: but I can see TOHATSU GURU has been extremely helpful to you!

I too have a brand new 2012 Tohatsu 50hp TLDI engine, 20 hours on it, and I pulled the plugs out the other day to inspect them after winterizing the engine and I found them to be very sooty, not as sooty as stancel's picture though! My engine runs fine but I wondered why so sooty and came to the conclusion it must be from the "running in" period where the ECU would make the engine run rich for the first 10 hours, well thats what I guessed/hoped! From what you have said earlier in this thread stancel my thinking seams to be correct re an ECU running in period, can you confirm this TOHATSU GURU? This would put my mind at ease as to why my plugs were sooty! Also how often should the NGK IZFR6Q pugs be changed? I have cleaned up my sooty ones and will see how they last but my manual that came with the engine simply says at every inspection to "Remove carbon deposits or Replace if necessary" so how long do they actually last?! 100 hours? 300 hours?

Stancel may I ask where you got your service manual from? I want to know how to do the diagnostic check!!! I cannot find a service manual here in the UK, this is the best I have found so far (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tohatsu-O...694?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53eeb675d6) but I'm not sure if it looks original and its not exactly local to me! lol

Lastly, TOHATSU GURU, when winterizing a TLDI engine, should you run the engine out of fuel? Tohatsu states here http://www.tohatsu.co.jp/en/boat/sales/winterizetips.html you should for carburettor models but does not mention TLDI engines!!!

Stancel, I'm sorry to hyjack your thread! :facepalm: GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR PROBLEM THOUGH!!!

Thanks,
James.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Spark plugs need to be changed as necessary...On a new engine, 20 to 50 hours would not be unusual. If you are running the correct oil in your engine, once you are out of break-in, 100 to 200 hours would be normal. However, some people get as many as 400 or 500 per plug set. It's really more about the oil you use in combination with the amount of time at idle. A service manual is available from any Nissan or Tohatsu dealer. Yes, on the fuel system drain for winterizing. You will have to re prime the fuel system when you start to use it again,but the procedure takes about 45 seconds and can be found in both your owners manual and in that service manual you need to buy.

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Tohatsu's owners manuals gives ambiguous tech answer regarding how long do plugs lasts, just recommend to clean carbon build up and change if too fouled, some engines eats internal tip faster than others, some boaters cleans them periodically, others never. A max of 200 meters hours with a clean and regap each 100 hours if engine is constatntly used will be about right before replacing for new ones. Plugs are cheap to extend them too loooong...

Happy Boating

 

[stancel]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

J@mes, I sent you some info on running diagnostics. Hope it helps. As for the plugs, I don't know how much time you spend operating your motor at idle speed, but I do it quite often in the small bayous where I boat, hunt and fish. Assuming this engine is like most 2 strokes, that could cause your plugs to get sooty. These are supposed to be very clean running motors though, so I can't say for sure. The GURU AND PVANV is really the authority on these things.

To update my situation, I am going to pick my rig up today. I was told they found a damaged seal on one of the injectors. They replaced the seals on all 3 injectors to be safe, and cleaned all the injectors thoroughly. I have been told it is running properly now. With luck, the problem has been fixed. Only time will tell, so I will get it back and put some hours on it this weekend.

I will update the post after putting a few hours on the motor.

 

[J@mes]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Thanks for the replies guys!

Spark plugs need to be changed as necessary...On a new engine, 20 to 50 hours would not be unusual. If you are running the correct oil in your engine, once you are out of break-in, 100 to 200 hours would be normal. However, some people get as many as 400 or 500 per plug set. It's really more about the oil you use in combination with the amount of time at idle. A service manual is available from any Nissan or Tohatsu dealer. Yes, on the fuel system drain for winterizing. You will have to re prime the fuel system when you start to use it again,but the procedure takes about 45 seconds and can be found in both your owners manual and in that service manual you need to buy.

TOHATSU GURU... so does idling make your plugs sooty then? As for draining the fuel system for winterizing, it doesnt say in my user manual how to do this! Can you tell me how please? (I will try my best to get a service manual in time for my next trip to where my boat is (another country at the moment!) but may not get the chance!!)



Stancel, thanks for your pm!

Back to your situation, I saw this and thought of you... http://www.tohatsu.com/tech_info/injectorcampaign.html prob a long shot but you never know! Though I hope from what you said above the dealer has already fixed it!!!

 

[pvanv]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

J@mes,

Lower RPM's and the proportionately cooler combustion chamber temperatures will lead to darker plugs, particularly on any 2-stroke. Likewise, it's very important to run oil that is specifically formulated for DFI motors, rather than generic TCW-3 oil.

To remove fuel for storage, you can unplug the fuel hose and let the motor run until it stalls. That will consume a lot of the fuel from the lines of the system. Then open the drain plug at the bottom of the vapor separator. Draining the separator gets rid of fuel that is exposed to the atmosphere, and it will also allow any accumulated sediment to flow out with it.

The Factory service manual for your MD50B2 motor is Part # 003-21050-2, $40.00, available from any dealer, including me.

The air injector campaign applied to a specific serial number range of motors. 2012 motors should be affected. Never hurts to verify the serial number, though

 

[stancel]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

My serial number is 024903AB, and Tohatsu says motors with the following serial numbers are effected: MD40B2 / MD50B2 - Serial Numbers #003989AX ~ #044507AX.

Is the 'X' at the end of the number a variable, or is it an actual 'X' at the end of the serial number?? If it is a variable then my motor would be in the range that Tohatsu is listing.

 

[pvanv]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Nope, the AX is precisely that. Serial numbers ending in AB are not included in the range. You're not affected.

 

[stancel]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Nope, the AX is precisely that. Serial numbers ending in AB are not included in the range. You're not affected.

Roger that. Thanks for the info buddy. I am walking out the door to hook up the boat. Nice morning for a cruise down the river!!

 

[J@mes]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

pvanv... Thanks for your reply! I have sent you a PM so this thread doesn't get cluttered!

 

[stancel]

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Re: New Tohatsu TLDI - Runs rough & Dirty plugs after 5 hours

Well guys, put 2.5 hours on the motor today, probably 45 minutes of that idling down narrow bayous. Motor still misses, but much milder than before. Whatever they did made an improvement, but still not running as smooth as I think it should. I thoroughly cleaned the black soot off of the prop and propeller nut when I got it back from the shop and it is still clean. Also seemed to improve noticeably on gas consumption.

One more time, thanks Guru and pvanv. Both of you were a huge help. Particularly you Elvin for making the phone calls to Tohatsu.