Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

[wellcraftexcelcrap]

Hi there,

I am looking for a quote to do some hull repairs to my 1993 24' Wellcraft Excel boat. I attempted (actually my brother n' law) to to a repair and our fiber glass repair was torn off by friction of water on hull first trip out. Needless to say, I now feel I should hire someone to do the repairs and get back out on the water. I am in the southern California area.

It will help if I explain my knowledge of the issues and attach a few pictures so you can provide me a general idea of what my repair cost will be. I have cracking that runs along the inside of both my starboard and port chines below the waterline. Starboard chine seems to be more solid than port but there does appear to be one previous patch on Starboard chine where cracking is. Port has obvious signs of fatigue, flexing, cracking and shows signs that water is leaking into hull in this area. The boat is stored out of the water (antifoul paint was put on by previous owner) The boat does take on a bit of water. I have installed a forward bilge pump that good job of removing water. I do not care about the aesthetics of the repair, no need for color matching or high end gel coats. I will match paint and paint back over once repairs are made myself to save on costs.
My priorities are 1) stop the boat from taking on water 2) Regain enough structural integrity as to make the boat safer if serious unsafe conditions exists. There is no water in the boat now but there has been water in the boat and foam is damp in bow to my knowledge. I do not mind damp foam and do not really care to re-foam under floor boards. I am not sure if a warrantee or guarantee can be offered for this type of work but I would like piece of mind that next time I take it in ocean swells it is not going to immediately re-crack and take on water. If I get 5-10 years out of this fix I would be satisfied. Any estimates of what repair will cost would be apprciated?

Thank you for your consideration attached are pictures.

 

[oops!]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

hi bud.

welcome to iboats !

we will need to see pics of the areas....including the area you believe that is having intrusion problems.

it is VERY RARE that a glass hull will leak at all inless a major impact has happened on the boat.

the repair that you did tore off? again very rare.....even a first timer can usually do a grall repair with good enough results to keep a boat afloat.....im guessing that wither you did not prep the area at all or that the boat has been preiviously repaired with some kind of epoxy, thus resulting in bonding issues.

i may add.....that if you are not worried about wet foam, and want the boat for 5-10 years....well...the two dont jive unless they the boat has engineered stringers and a composite transom......
of the latter,,,i doubt.

wet foam will cause a boat to rot out in 3 years,,,,never mind five....

one thing im really worried about.....is WHY the boat is doing what you say it is....lets get some pics up and have a look.

i own a pro repair shop and can give you a good guesstimate of the cost.

as far as finding a good shop in so cal....well lets see if the guys can help !


by the way, if you want to do the repair your self again.....this time with pro advice.....we can help you and you can be back on the water in less than a weekend with under 200 bux of materials !
(unless the boat is fubar, and that is rare) !

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

I'm with OOPS on the previous repair. Either No grinding was done and it was just glassed over the existing Gelcoat with no Prep or...Previous repair was epoxy. Your attempt at posting pics did not work. Best method is Opening a Free Photobucket account and then hovering over the uploaded pic and then clicking on the last link in the popup window (IMG tag) You can then come to iBoats and hold down the Ctrl Key and click the "V" key to past the tag into your iBoats post.

 

[wellcraftexcelcrap]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

Thanks opps! and Woodonglass.
I guess because I had such a bad repair experience diy I kind of gave up although I would be willing to try again and $200 is music to my ears. Thank you for your input on this. I attached pictures. One good thing is the fiber glass tore off all the bottom paint and some more of the gel coat.
A little more on my hack repair. We only removed about 10% of the gel coat where the glass was applied in 4" wide strips over both starboard and port chines. Probably could have roughed up better. Probably a big "no no" but we applied glass directly over some of the antifouling paint. The adhesion during and after curing seem to be perfect, no air bubbles, keep in mind we were applying glass upside down. We also use a plywood wet-out board before applying glass to hull. We used two layers of 4" wide 6 ounce glass with taper edges to avoid stringers. We use West Coast Systems epoxy resin. We felt pretty good about our job well done at that point in time and we went to Catalina the next weekend...
In your opinion should we have removed all the gel coat and antifouling paint before applying glass or could gel coat have been roughened up more and glass just applied over gel coat? We are not concerned on aesthetics. I am pretty sure it was not completely an adhesion issue(except maybe over bottom paint) since all the glass came off everywhere. May be we should have completely removed the bottom paint where glass was applied? What should we have used to grind? Were the materials we used correct?
Now on to bigger problems. Removing the foam and tearing floor boards out seems like a scary proposition for a novice. Foam is sealed in compartments beneath floors. Is there a way to test for water before removing floor boards? Keep in mind I now have damp foam not wet foam in the bow area compartment. To elaborate, I cut a 4 x 4 hole into the bow foam compartment floor board and removed foam under 4" hole area cut. I then removed all water that accumulated in the bottom of the hole which was also the lowest point on the foam compartment. Kind of like a water well where water coming from foam is ground water.. I can see how a foam compartment full of water with no effort to remove water would cause rot quickly but even a damp foam compartment? Maybe the foam will dry out now that foam has ventilation through hole ? I also installed a bilge pump in the hole. How would I go about patching a large hole in a floor board? Maybe there is another thread in this. Keep in mind we are not perfectionists or pros just novices who don't want a major hull fail while out in open seas. Kind of a fine line at this point I guess. Would an honest professional be a better road for us?

 

[wellcraftexcelcrap]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

More pics

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

To me, it appears there was inadequate prep of the area and that's why the patch failed. Do you have the ability to lift the boat off of the trailer enough to get to the damaged area safely? If so then I see no reason why we cuold not guide you to a successful repair of this damaged area. Problem is, as was stated before, if this has been going on for a while the wet foam will NEVER dry out and will continue to cause issues. If its MORE than damp it can add significant weight to the boat. Also, the damage might be enough that it needs to be addressed from both inside the hull and outside. I'll let OOPS the Pro, make the decision.

 

[wellcraftexcelcrap]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

That sounds great Woodonglass, Opps! or anyone and if you can help.. I never expected to get such good feedback from this site. I would definitely appreciate any guidance. Yes, I can get the boat off the trailer safely and have done so to change out and reposition bunks on the newer replacement trailer. I would have to assume the foam had probably been wet/damp for a while. A little history, I purchased this boat a year ago and it is pretty obvious to me now the previous owner had covered up some serious issues. I found the center floor board had a 2x2 circular hole cut into it before and was fiber glassed over in a very armature way. Also I question why the previous owner would have painted bottom of a boat that was never actually kept in the water. This guy was a crook in my opinion but we have all heard that story and now I am determined to get the boat up to par. I have recently gone through all the mechanical aspects with a professional and it runs very sound. Also, did many things myself such as interior window canvas, carpet, and installed a bimini, re-seal/weather proof, install anchor roller, and additional bilge pump but work is still far from done as I continue to learn more and discover more problems.

A few more details on the hull repair. The area where the crack is on the starboard side of hull has a bit of flex when I push upward on the hull. When we made the repair initially the flex was no longer noticeable. Clarification: I reversed port and starboard in my initial post of this thread. Inside the boat, the starboard side of the floor board directly above front foam compartment has a crack so there may have been an impact at one time on the starboard side of the bow that has resulted in the observed deterioration.
Here are some more pictures with info I am describing...

 

[rickryder]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

By looking at some of the cracks in the deck.... I would think there are some structural issues below the deck.... I see core sampling the foam to start with..... Nice looking boat! Were here to help Ya out whatever you decide to do..... I never even owned a boat till last winter and with the help of the guys on here rebuilt one If your handy you CAN do it yourself and save thousands in labor costs!

 

[oops!]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

the reason the first repair failed was because you glassed over antifouling paint

secondly......the wrong kind of materials were used.

so.......lets get you up to speed on the simple process of glassing.

click the link in my sig.......and read the first 16 pages.

that is enough information about fiberglassing to do any repair to your boat you want to.

however......form the pics im looking at.....those areas look to me like a full gut is needed,

there area ways to to it if you want another season out of it.......but if you want to keep the boat...it will require a full blown stringer replacement....

 

[wellcraftexcelcrap]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

Opps read first 16 pages. Pretty cool stuff but way too involved and I don't have enough corona to do something like that. I will read the rest soon. Rick Ryder, I went out to the boat on Saturday and did some core sampling. I actually found much less foam than anticipated but did find one more area that had water. Cut a 4"dia hold and drianed. The only area I haven't been able to check is under gas tank. No quite sure how to do that.

I don't think stringers are roted since water has not reached that height. There is some wet plywood under area of foam compartment. Any chance this will dry out with proper ventaltion and foam removed?

As for sealing up the exterior of the chines I am still a bit confused on what materials to use but do have a better understanding of prep. Can chop strand be cut into 4" wide by 6' long peices and still adhear upsidedown? I thought to use chop strand because I read it would provide some structural support but not sure for and upside down application on the exterior.

Still confused about what type of resin to use. Epoxy sounds like the best way to go but maybe poly is better?

Thanks

 

[rickryder]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

The best thing to do is post pics of what your seeing so we can see also. If you found standing water below the deck in the hull and foam you may have rot issues you can't see. Boats rot from the bottom up.... The factory dosen't do a great job sealing the stringers and water seeps into the stringers from below and wicks up into the wood...

To get under the fuel tank sole you have to remove the tank itself....

Was the foam wet? If so it will never dry out....If the wood is wet it will dry over time but the damage is done....plywood will delaminate when wet....

Post some pics and we will guide you in your next steps.

As far as the chines you can use csm in strips and they will stick upside down... Your boat was built with poly resin so that will be fine to do your repairs with....But lets find out if you have structural problems first.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

looking at the pics, it looks like there is a prior attempt at repair under the anti-foul paint, and then the recent one over the anti-foul paint. I am with most here, this isnt a simple patch job and will required a gut and replace. there is structural issues with the boat.

since you have added a second bilge pump up front and stated "it takes on a bit of water", I would be concerned that that small leak becomes a really large leak. If it was my boat, I would fix it correctly before I took it out again.

 

[oops!]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

the first thing we have to do is to repair the hull breach.......you can run a boat with soft decks but you cant run one with a hole in the hull.

the reason i asked you to read the first 16 was because of the glassing info there. it is the most detailed how to on the site.

with the info you learn in those pages, you can fix the breach...but the hull needs to be properly prepped....or it will fail again.

read this thread.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=540509

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

Still confused about what type of resin to use. Epoxy sounds like the best way to go but maybe poly is better?

Thanks

Sorry for be casually late to the party here ..

Here is some sound advise for ya wellcraft ..

Nobody can tell you what to use or how to fix it right now. There is basically not enough information on the damage being presented thus far.

If you rolled that puppy into a shop and asked for a quote they will probably say something like " welp ..we charge $90/hour and its going to take 3-4 hours to grind and explore the damage before we can give you a solid figure "

There is no way to tell until you grind into it and see just how far the glass has been damaged .. or why it was damaged.

You need to do a few things before we go any further on How to proceed or How to fix.

1. Get it off the trailer. Make sure you shore it in a place that can spot the boat without moving it for a while. You just may need a few weeks there before you can put the boat back on its trailer.

2. Grab your safety gear and a grinder and start grinding out the bad glass from the outside. Lets not skate around this issue. The bad glass Needs to go .. period. If those cracks go through the strakes ( not chines ) then your grind out is going to go through as well.

Once the grind out is done from the outside..then we can go from there.

Do you need to start cuttin and guttin the inside ?? Who knows .. We dont have pics from the inside At the crack location. That pic you have with the subfloor means nothing. We dont see the location from the inside yet. I doubt that the subfloor is at the lower strake location that is being seen from the outside. I think its probably a strake or two up.

This is what its going to take before you goto your next step mate..

You might get lucky and find there was only a severe air void(s) in the strake edges themselves and not a major issue. .. Dunno until you grind .

I can say that it would be uncommon to have that kind of linear damage that close to the keel without some other visual damage in the flats of the hull. But again..who knows.

Hope this helps..any other pics you can throw our way always helps.

YD.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

pics in post #5 scare me

pic's 1 & 2, you can see the edge of an earlier repair about 6" below the latest repair.

Pic 3, way too many stress cracks.

Pic 4, early repair evidence under the anti-foul about 4" to left of the exposed fiberglass. looks like they used bondo.

 

[wellcraftexcelcrap]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

Here is all info I have gathered ro make exterior repair. I will get to structure but maybe next season just trying to learn some basics before I go pro. Let me know if you guys have any input I have gather from various sources...

Instructions and for hull repair.
-Grind all gelcoat off
-Grind out rotten/cracked/damaged glass
-Clean with acetone before sanding
-Make structural thickened resin.

--25% resin
--30% 1/4 inch short strand
--45 % milled fibers...(powder)

-catalyze the un waxed resin first at 1.5%. then mix in the fillers to the catalyzed resin....mix well.
-spread the filler into the prepped and cleaned area..
-make sure to gish the filler into the exposed area.....really push it into the hole.
-use the thick filler to make the shape of the chine or strake.
-glass the wet layer with 2 layers of 1.5 csm using wet out board
-let partially cure until most of the heat is gone from the theromlitic reaction.
-glass with another 2 layers of csm. each layer larger than the last.
-let go to full cure.......
-sand and fair.......apply gelcoat sand , fair, polish.
-standard repair and can be done in 4 hours including cure times.

Items needed:
4 1/2" angle grinder 75
24 grit sanding discs 25
respirator x
eye protection x
tyvek suit long sleeve shirt x
Acetone 20
clean rags 5
5 pair rubber gloves 15
mixing containers x
mixer stick 5
1/4 inch short strand x
milled fibers...(powder) x
Tooling Resin / catalyst
scissors
wet out board 0
spreaders x
paint brushes x
1.5 oz csm in 4" strips
gel coat /catalyst.
Surfacing Wax (Mod-C) x
Styrenex x
spray gun w/ air compressor x
other grit sand paper?
200 grit sand paper for finishing 5
Palm Sander x
Budget: $245

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

That pretty much covers it. Make sure to Acetone AFTER the sanding not before.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

Here is all info I have gathered ro make exterior repair. I will get to structure but maybe next season just trying to learn some basics before I go pro. Let me know if you guys have any input I have gather from various sources...

Instructions and for hull repair.
-Grind all gelcoat off
-Grind out rotten/cracked/damaged glass
-Clean with acetone before sanding
-Make structural thickened resin.

Um..no .. Wrong way to do this IMO ..

Please read my above post again ..

Grind/glass/shape/finish.

You should not grind/shape/glass/finish ..

Grind it out and post up some pics please..get the boat off the trailer.

YD.

 

[oops!]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

wellcraft....

the first thing i would do is get your safety equipment and a grinder....and go to town.

every time i get in a sunk boat or a badily damaged one.....that is the first thing i do.

get the gellcoat off the damaged areas.....and all the repaired glass.....the old repairs are not good and need to be re done. this way you will be able to see what you are working with.

DONT PANIC.

this is how you do it......when you are deep in an inch of glass dust and looking at a hull that looks destroyed,,,,,dont worry.....it can be repaired quite quickly.

by the way.....how did you get this boat?...where?...after looking at the pics several times now....im beginning to have thoughts about the boat......but we can get to that later.

lets get down to the glass and see what we are working with.

when you grind....it is possible that you will notice a crack BETWEEN the glass....kinda like an inner layer and an outer layer. but not intentionally. this is de lamination.....
if you find some.....stop ....clean with acetone.....take a pic.....and move on to a different area. then post the pic.

i have had de lam areas that are over 10 feel long and very wide.....

de lamb is different than say crazing... crazing is a crack at 90 deg to the glass....a de lamination goes in the middle of the layer. (kinda like a slice of ham between two pieces of bread. where the ham is the actual crack)

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Need a Assistance Fiberglass Hull repair

wellcraft....

the first thing i would do is get your safety equipment and a grinder....and go to town.

every time i get in a sunk boat or a badily damaged one.....that is the first thing i do.

get the gellcoat off the damaged areas.....and all the repaired glass.....the old repairs are not good and need to be re done. this way you will be able to see what you are working with.

DONT PANIC.

this is how you do it......when you are deep in an inch of glass dust and looking at a hull that looks destroyed,,,,,dont worry.....it can be repaired quite quickly.

by the way.....how did you get this boat?...where?...after looking at the pics several times now....im beginning to have thoughts about the boat......but we can get to that later.

lets get down to the glass and see what we are working with.

when you grind....it is possible that you will notice a crack BETWEEN the glass....kinda like an inner layer and an outer layer. but not intentionally. this is de lamination.....
if you find some.....stop ....clean with acetone.....take a pic.....and move on to a different area. then post the pic.

i have had de lam areas that are over 10 feel long and very wide.....

de lamb is different than say crazing... crazing is a crack at 90 deg to the glass....a de lamination goes in the middle of the layer. (kinda like a slice of ham between two pieces of bread. where the ham is the actual crack)

Yea..kinda like what I was suggesting in the Above Post mate ... Well..more like Exactly what I was suggesting.

So Im glad you are supporting me.

YD.